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Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestions
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If you’ve been paying attention, then you know that clbumes aren’t exactly balanced at the moment. In the end-game: * Trolls have the best base damage and defense, and so are far and beyond the most powerful clbum available. * Emokids have the highest peak damage output, and are the only clbum currently able to pwn Geronimo. * Hackers have the largest point boost. * Camwhores have modest damage and low stats. With the advent of Kyoubai glbumes have become “Not-Emokid” clbum equipment instead of Camwhore clbum equipment, throwing the clbum balance into chaos.
Hackers and Emokids seem to be reasonably balanced at the moment, and I, personally, feel that Trolls and Camwhores should be brought in-line with those two.
Towards that end, I propose the following changes:
Hacker: 1: Make starter kit provide Egomania instead of Ego. This makes it equally useful at all stages of the game without ever making it overpowered.
Camwhore: 1: Add Ep2 shoes to increase off/def. This would provide a boost to the sorely lacking stat bonuses. 2: Have charisma boost healing abilities (But not healing items) the same way that offense boosts attack power. This would provide a reason for Camwhores to put points into the healing tree, instead of just going right for the pix. 3: Increase Fetish Pics base damage to 250, increase Hand Bra base damage to 225. 4: Optionally, reduce cooldown on It’s Playtime! to 1 round.
Emokid: 1: Reduce defense bonus on tattoos and piercings, replace with ego or egomania. Effective Emokid builds require that several points be put into egomania, but do not always require points in defense. Due to the lack of egomania boosting items, this would allow Emokids to be much more flexible with their UP allocation. 2: Allow Up-Suck to be used on any forum. This would allow Emokids to rapidly drop their ego at the start of a forum, resulting in less of a grind before they reach peak damage.
Trolls: 1: Reduce base damage for Political Flamebait to 215. Reduce base damage for Shock Sites to 200. Reduce damage range for Post Personal Information from 150-180 to 130-160. This is to offset the high defense and low cooldown.
Does anybody have an opinion on these changes? (Yes, I know Camwhore sees the most benefit from these, but what did you honestly expect?) Voice your opinions!
Edit: Added Emokid suggestion 2. SimplyTHEBEST edited this message on 03/02/2009 1:05AM |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 6:27PM |
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Do we need two threads for this? |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 7:08PM |
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THAT thread was asking if the imbalance was actually a problem. THIS thread is saying “Of course it is, now what can we do about it?” |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 9:36PM |
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I pwned Geronimo at level 24, though. According to your theory, that shouldn’t happen.
Or am I just reading the thing wrong? |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 9:39PM |
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Sheepshifter Posted:
According to fact, it didn’t happen: http://www.forumwarz.com/leaderboard/speedrun/52 |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 9:57PM |
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SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
Oh, so I was reading it wrong, and you meant the scoreboards instead of just actually beating it. |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 10:05PM |
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SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
cheaters don’t appear on leaderboards… |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 10:05PM |
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Cheaters aren’t factored into clbum balance; that would be stupid.
Also, unless CZ changed it so that dolphin works on the boss thread, it’s not possible for any clbum but Emokid to deal sufficient damage to kill the boss. This can be proven mathematically. Since only the Emokid can survive a hit from the boss, any other clbum needs to kill with their first strike. With Political Flamebait (350 base damage) you would need a damage multiplier of x28.57. That works out to an offense of 363, which is not currently achievable for any clbum. |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 10:31PM |
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I’m inclined to agree with you on every point but that hackers are fine. I simply ask that you look at the clbumes most powerful natural attacks. Not only do hackers have the weakest natural attacks, they both have a refresh 6!
Emos: Quoth the Raven (175|12|1) Everybody Hurts (230|15|1) Trolls: Shock Sites (220|8|1) Political Flamebait (350|8|1) Camwhores: Hand Bra (200|13|1) Post Fetish Pictures (225|15|1) Hackers: ipz (200 – 210|7|6) 404 (110 – 130|3|6) |
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| Posted On: 02/28/2009 10:54PM |
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Optimal clbum equipment + starter packs: Camwhore: Red Strap-Ons™ * Max Sexiness +75 * Offense +5 * Defense +5 * Luck +5 Professor Tightly’s Old-Fashioned™ Corset * Max Sexiness +250 * Charisma +7 * Luck +7 * Defense +7 Glbumes are no longer relevant as they are actually cheaper to buy at auction than the store for a person of average frugality, and so are available to every clbum but emokid. Starter pack: Who’s That ****?™ Starter Pack * Charisma +5 * Offense +1
Total bonus: +9 offense/+12 defense. +21 combined (63 UP eq), +12 points in luck (12 points UP eq). 75 UP total
Emokid: Lobe Stretching * Max Tears +325 * Offense +8 * Defense +8 Nautical Star * Max Tears +225 * Offense +5 * Defense +5 First Cut is the Deepest™ Starter Pack * Charisma +1 * Offense +4 * Defense +3
Total bonus: +29/+25 +54 combined (162 UP eq),
Emokids start off with mediocre DPR, but their damage bonus to damage quickly boosts their output. They are the only clbum that can’t wear glbumes, but if they could it would be enough to make them unquestionably the most powerful clbum.
Hacker: Beast0r High-Speed Cables (x4)
* Defense +15 * Offense +15 * Luck +10 Total bonus: +60/+60 +120 combined (360 UP eq), +40 points in luck (40 points UP eq). 400 UP total
Hackers can get enough PP from .moar files to make up for using x4 cables, and they don’t have to sacrifice much (if any) offense to do it. That gives them a serious stat advantage that more or less offsets their low base attack power.
Troll: Tumorous Kidney * Max Douchebaggery: 600 * Offense: 10 * Defense: 35 You Little ****™! Starter Pack * Defense +8
Total bonus: +10/+67 +77 combined (231 UP eq)
Trolls have insanely high base damage, and the low offense granted by their Eq doesn’t make a lot of difference once you factor in .moar files. The high defense just means that they can put fewer points into egomania than other clbumes, and don’t need to spend as much time healing.
—-
UP per clbum:
Camwhore: 75UP Emokid: 162UP Hacker: 400UP Troll: 231UP
Earbleeders:
* Charisma +25 * Offense +18 * Defense +12
+30 combined (90 UP eq)
UP per clbum with Earbleeders:
Camwhore: 165UP Emokid: 162UP Hacker: 490UP Troll: 321UP
—-
Offense modifiers to damage as per above without Earbleeders:
Camwhore: +68.697% Damage Emokid: +221.357% Damage Hacker: +457.98% Damage Troll: +76.33% Damage
Offense modifiers to damage as per above with Earbleeders:
Camwhore: +206.091% Damage Emokid: +221.357% Damage Hacker: +595.374% Damage Troll: +213.724% Damage
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Highest damage output attack cycle: Camwhore: Fetish pics(225)->Hand Bra(200)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 212.5 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 358.5 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 650
Emokid: Everybody Hurts(230)->Quoth the Raven(175)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 202.5(*) Adjusted without Earbleeders: 651(*) Adjusted with Earbleeders: N/A (*Base, not adjusted for bonuses from health loss)
Hacker: ipz(205)->avtr(105)->flipr(95)->avtr(105)->404(120)->avtr(105)->flipr(95)->Recipes(200)->avtr(105)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 126.1 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 704 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 876.8
Troll: Political Flamebait(350)->Shock Sites(220)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 285 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 502.54 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 892.1
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Of course, all these are just factoring in base stats, and don’t account for playstyle. Hackers, for example, can’t sustain a cycle like that without using PP restoratives, and Emokids get a damage boost equal to the percent of their health that is gone. This means that, in practice, Emokids do much more damage (~+50%, as a ballpark figure) while Hackers do a bit less (Dropping flipr and one or more of avtrs, for example). Further, since UP distribution varies from player to player I can’t really create a ‘typical’ build for showing ‘normal’ end-game point distribution. However, the high defense of the Hacker and Troll free-up points for other things. Also, the Hacker’s initial offense bonus is somewhat dampened by all the offense boosts available (UP, .moar files, books, etc… ), while the Troll’s is exacerbated.
I wrote this up to show that the low base damage and long cycle times that the Hacker suffers from are offset by the clbum’s large stat boosts, while the high base damage of the Troll has no such weakness.
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TL;DR: Hackers aren’t actually all that bad off. They’re pretty close to being in balance with Emokids, and fixing balance issues with them will have to wait until Camwhores and Trolls are brought back in-line.
Edit: Revised hacker loop as per suggestion. Edit 2: Corrected math error. SimplyTHEBEST edited this message on 03/01/2009 6:19PM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 12:50AM |
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Avtr needs to be made a useful skill again, since it’s so terribly underwhelming at the top of the skill tree. Upping its power to 150 or so would be reasonable, considering its comparatively mbumive PP cost.
I would actually suggest making avtr attack 160, refresh: 2, 10 PP. Possibly a Cabbage edited this message on 03/01/2009 2:29AM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 1:08AM |
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SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
Your math is completely misleading; you only calculate the damage modifiers without the mbumive boosts from .moar files and Upgrade Points, which are available to all clbumes. The attack bonuses are much closer together when those are accounted for, making Hackers much worse than you make them appear. Also, your Hacker attack loop is wrong; it’s really easy to come up with a better loop.
EDIT: I probably don’t need to quote the whole thing, but I don’t know which parts to remove. Anyway, a sample better loop (in terms of damage/turn):
ipz->avtr->flipr->avtr->404->avtr->flipr->Recipes->avtr->repeat
Of course, what really matters is not average damage output, but average number of turns needed to kill a thread. Simple attack loops will require on-the-fly adjustment for such things as not wasting high-powered attacks on near-death threads. I generally don’t bother with preset loops, since thread health so often necessitates adjustments to the loop.
EDIT 2: Also, does the concept of a tank clbum make any sense in a game with a significant incentive (Lemon scoops, better Vanilla, and better jobs) for hitting fast and hard?
EDIT 3: Better loop: ipz->avtr->X->404->avtr->X->avtr->repeat, where X cycles between Recipes, Ophelia, and flipr. zagerblag edited this message on 03/01/2009 6:55PM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 1:31AM |
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zagerblag Posted:
Key point. The analysis really needs to factor in the fact that any serious player will be getting at least +50 offense from .moar files alone (really serious players will be getting +57 offense, and enough bonuses to other clbumes that means no upgrade points need to be spent on anything but offense and egomania). This has the effect of comparatively underpowering clbumes with weak attacks but naturally high stats while comparatively overpowering clbumes with strong attacks but naturally low stats.
When .moars let trolls easily get 150 offense without needing consumables to pwn level 35 forums at max threads, the fact that Hackers can get 180 offense without needing consumables to pwn level 35 forums at max threads doesn’t really offset the difference between the basic attacks for those clbumes. Trolls end up doing dramatically more damage per turn when you look at the extremes of the power spectrum. |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:25AM |
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SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
Truly showing your bias here and invalidates your arguments. Emo kids don’t need ego in their starter packs. Either do the hackers. The hackers should have gotten processing power. Also, the last thing emos need is a decrease in their defense. The people that think that are playing emos like a normal clbum. Oh and one more thing. Camwhores don’t need better shoes. They already got better glbumes and lingerie was added as equipment. |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:55AM |
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zagerblag Posted:
Give me an optimal build that I can use as a baseline and we can work from there, but as it stands there’s too much ambiguity for me to go with real builds.
Also, if I did use real builds, then you would have called me on the builds being crappy.
zagerblag Posted:
If that gets people to provide me with actual player data to work with, then so be it.
zagerblag Posted:
Ok, I’ve edited my post to use that instead. Mine had an average base damage of 124.5 versus the 101.1 of yours, but I guess you’re going for increased flexibility instead of raw damage.
zagerblag Posted:
Sadly, that’s quite a bit harder to model.
zagerblag Posted:
CZ has said they plan to split the speedrun boards based on clbum, and turn them from real time to a round count. I’m banking on that happening first, since then the Troll doesn’t need to have a high DPR to get scoops and finish jobs. Their high defense will actually be enough of a benefit on it’s own.
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the Remainder Posted:
When you consider that I admitted to being biased and asked for other people to help fix that, it makes me wonder why you would even bother to post in this thread in the first place.
Also, I am under the impression that Camwhores are at the greatest disadvantage when it comes to capability. If somebody can show that to be mistaken, then obviously my suggestions are going to change.
Aside from that, this is mostly about end-game balance since that allows us to make a lot of simplifying bumumptions with decent accuracy. You’re not even close to level 35 yet, so you aren’t really in a position to contribute that much.
the Remainder Posted:
Egomania, not ego, and unless you’re putting zero UP into Egomania (Which would result in you having less than 700 ego, even with the best ego-boosting eq and .moar files) then my suggested change would have zero impact on how you play the game. However, people who would rather spend those UP that would have gone to Defense on other things would be given more flexibility.
the Remainder Posted:
Camwhores didn’t get better glbumes, Emokids were denied better glbumes. It’s not clbum equipment if basically anybody can use it.
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Possibly a Cabbage Posted:
Fair enough, but there are other factors at play here. Hackers have almost as much defense as Trolls, and if their damage is boosted too much then they’re going to be out of balance. At the moment Hackers are about on-par with Emokids, as near as I can tell, and that’s the level of effectiveness that Trolls and Camwhores need to be brought to.
——
I’m going to offer my list of EQ that provides stats (Not including secondaries or Ego, and not including EQ I’ve already listed) as a Camwhore build.
Democrat: * Offense +8 * Defense +8 * Luck +8
16 combined (48UP +8)
BIG Will:
* Luck +6 * Max Ego +145 * Offense +6 * Frugality +6 * Charisma +6
(24UP+12)
pink floyd: * Offense +30 * Defense +30
60 combined (180up)
YOU.leer: * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 (21UP +7)
Useless: * Defense +6 * Offense +6 12 combined (36UP)
****.MILF: * Luck +7 * Defense +7 * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 * Charisma +7 14 combined (42UP+14)
Total: +392UP, (+64off)
Combined total for all Camwhore EQ and bonuses: 557 UP (Including +91 offense)
If others would be so kind as to post their own eq lists, that would help out quite a bit. SimplyTHEBEST edited this message on 03/01/2009 12:04PM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 11:44AM |
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Here’s some food for thought.
Right now we’re talking only about end game balance, could it be possible that the clbumes were designed such that certain clbumes would have a harder time leveling up and playing through the game while in the low-mid levels, but become really powerful in the end game; whereas other clbumes can just blaze through the game like Sonic the Hedgehog, but end up being less powerful when end game is reached?
Reason I ask is because I seem to have a fairly easy time progressing through the game with my hacker and emo kid accounts, whereas I definitely had to spend more time leveling up my troll and camwhore. (I have a permanoob just for ****s and giggles, but it’s become too much of a time sink) |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 2:05PM |
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futhermocker Posted:
That doesn’t actually make a lot of sense, since the end-game is distinct from normal gameplay. If clbumes aren’t balanced in the end-game then it quickly grows stale and boring. Also, the difficulty when playing through the game is entirely dependent on how you choose to play. When I went through I bought the cheap equipment then the best equipment without much in the way of the mid-range equipment, and that resulted in the game being a bit tough at first followed by being fairly easy. (Of course, .moar files have come out since then and have thrown all the playbalance into chaos. Also, Camwhores got a few big nerfs along the way.)
futhermocker Posted:
Your pattern fails with the Camwhore, as the camwhore clbum is the weakest in the end-game. D: If you take the time to gear your chars out, the difference should be significant.
On a related note, could you please provide your current build (EQ/Stats)? I can’t work this kinda stuff out without more information. |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:13PM |
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I don’t know why everyone’s making things more complicated than they are. Trolls are overpowered and need a damage nerf. This is obvious, and will happen when ET gives it sufficient priority. I don’t see what else there is to say about the topic. |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:19PM |
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DEAD fabulous person
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SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
How did you calculate an average damage of 101.1? My calculations put it at 126.1, and that’s without substituting Ophelia for every third flipr, which raises average damage to 126.4
SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
With optimal .moar files, the total Offense boost from .moars alone is 50 (EDIT: 57, I forgot about dogreat timesents), far more than that from any Clbum equipment except Hacker equipment. Even before Upgrade Points, that’s a huge Offense equalizer that you’re not accounting for. Since we’re talking about the endgame, people will have optimal .moar files. Please at least put that into your calculations. Upgrade Points are harder to handle, but they make Offense boosts even closer to equal.
the Remainder Posted:
Are you just trolling? Hackers have enough processing power; they need ego. On any forum I visit, I need more ego long before I need PP. .moars, Books, and Surgical Procedures give enough PP.
How do Emos not want a Defense drop? Their attack power is hugely boosted when they are near death, so Emos want to take damage as quickly as possible to pwn faster. People playing Emos like a normal clbum would want more Defense, from which a normal clbum would benefit.
As SimplyTHEBEST said, with the advent of Kyoubai, Glbumes are now not-Emo equipment instead of Camwhore equipment. Better Glbumes are not a Camwhore boost, but an Emo nerf. zagerblag edited this message on 03/01/2009 6:12PM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:46PM |
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the Remainder Posted:
Emo kids need more Egomania in Starter packs because the damage we do is based on what percentage health we have left. More Egomania = Minimum safe Ego level = More efficient Scaled Ego boost = More damage.
Defense is pretty much unnecessary late-game for Emo kids, as we don’t really benefit from it. I put all of my points into the Wine attack tree and offense, and I still get decent defense points naturally, and can survive pretty well, though a boost to Egomania would be beneficial.
My stats and Equips:
Ego:355 Tears:585 Offense: 129 Defense: 59 Luck: 8 Frugality: 8 Charisma: 10 Upkeep: 1
CMPLT MRN’S GIDE 2 TXTNG Condition: 94% – Excellent
* Max Ego +25
PruneServ™ Condition: 97% – Excellent
* Max Ego +50
more random keystrokes.dtbs Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Luck +7 * Offense +7 pink floyd – darkside full album (ttly syncs w/ wzrd of oz at 2:43 awesome!!!).h Condition: 97% – Excellent
* Defense +30 * Offense +30 if u look closely u can see my woman's genitals lol.ogle Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Max Ego +105 * Offense +5 * Frugality +5 * Charisma +5 Lobe Stretching Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Max Tears +325 * Offense +8 * Defense +8 Deluxe Paperclip bumistant Suite v9.0 [2 CDs].exec Condition: 99% – Excellent
* Max Ego +40 * Defense +2 * Offense +2 * Frugality +2
Fr4gGingR1teZ 2020 male reproductive organblaster™ Premier Xtreem™ Edition Condition: 97% – Excellent
* Max Ego +20 Tonsil Regeneration Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Max Ego +50
More Information Nautical Star in Sparrow Tattoo Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Max Tears +250 * Offense +6 * Defense +6 El Unicornio Más Bonito – Yvid Spanish Latino [www.LatinoDivy.com].divy Condition: 98% – Excellent
* Max Ego +60 * Max Sexiness +60 ——————————-
Note how many things I have equipped which give me the offense boost I need with the additino to equal defense increase. Replacing the Defense increase from the Starter kit doesn’t help much with late-game because even if you completely ignore your Defense stat when leveling, you’re going to get more than enough defense when maximizing damage and ego through items. Bridget edited this message on 03/01/2009 4:50PM |
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| Posted On: 03/01/2009 4:48PM |
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