imo lemon is harder to get than antifreeze

imo if anything there needs to be other ways to get lemon, since there’s already 2 ways to get antifreeze, although one is really useless.

[s]also if you’re looking for new scoop ideas, maybe a kyoubai scoop? is it possible? maybe for each won bid/sold auction over 100,000 or something.

or scoops for flamebate or something[/s]

edit: never mind that all terrible ideas.

but maybe this is a good idea? shift domination away from forum pwning. make scoops that can be gained in without pwning forums but in volumes comparable to pwning forums. Right now pistachio and vanilla are overpowered compared to the other flavours.

scully has some p. nice ideas there. Log in to see images!

The point is: Forumwarz is boring and klan raids are one of the very few aspects of the game that are not that boring (yet). I can totally comprehend solo players who feel disadvantaged by the huge amounts of Log in to see images! more (remember: I can solo at rollover).

Also I find it laughable if people expect that, now that klan raiding was heavily buffed, it’s not important to be in a klan anymore. With the recent changes, bracket cooperation between a klan’s players has become much more important and I highly doubt that anyone can win in a top bracket without having close relations to one of the three klans. So if you want to be 100% competitive, you still need to cooperate with a klan (or alternatively have several of your characters in the same bracket). And there is nothing you can do about it.

Eventhough I totally support scully, here’s what I think about it: imo there are two directions to go.

Direction 1) Players who participate in klan raids are not disabled from solo raiding, but the raiding process requires those players to sacrifice something for these (limited) bonus scoops and also the klan has to coordinate who gets this bonus and who doesn’t. Possible changes into this direction: More than one character per player, only one char per player earns scoops. Limit to 12 or 10 raid members. Some further restrictions that don’t make it necessary to choose between klan raiding and solo raiding.

Direction 2) Players who participate in klan raids are disabled from solo raiding. Then you have to improve klan raiding to make sure that solo’ing does not benefit anyone.

Keep in mind: If you klan raid with your main character, you will be in a conflict regarding Log in to see images! to be earned – and stop just naming the max. amount, there are more aspects you have to think about!

Also think about accesibility of raiding: As it is right now, you need to have 13 players available at the same time without anyone having to go or turning up late. Even we in GGM would struggle with this. And klan raiding with less than 8 characters is obviously a total waste if you have to give up solo, even if you manage to maintain a very good Log in to see images!.)

//Edit: What I just figured is that enabling that players can join a raid with several characters would actually encourage more raiding klans. It would mean that there is basically no difference if your klan has 50 active raiders or only 4 who have 3 characters each. Do it.

Some other notes:

– What I absolutely agree with is that only Domination-enabled characters should be able to dominate forums. Important change imo.

– I don’t feel that the 15-minute rule is too much of an issue because you probably wouldn’t even start the klan raid with too few people if you can’t solo raid (and yes, I bumume that it will be p. discouraging to find out that you can’t raid because some people didn’t turn up). On the other hand, why join a klan raid and give up solo vanilla if it’s half-way over already? Still, I don’t see any reasons why the time limit was implemented after all… so I’d also say remove it.

– I don’t think that you need to do that much about Log in to see images! for self-killing three times in a row.

– Definitely limit max. Log in to see images! to 100 forums. Or wait… what if you limit it to 50? That would mean that you could aim for medals every second week instead of every third/fourth. (Limit to 100 – every fourth week)

– Try to think of something regarding Log in to see images!?).

tl;dr: Klan raiding takes too much effort for the small benefit you get out of it. Stop only thinking about the ideal case, but also think about possible problems if things don’t go perfectly. Or just accept that people can both klan raid and solo raid.

FalCoN Posted:

Also I find it laughable if people expect that, now that klan raiding was heavily buffed, it’s not important to be in a klan anymore. With the recent changes, bracket cooperation between a klan’s players has become much more important and I highly doubt that anyone can win in a top bracket without having close relations to one of the three klans. So if you want to be 100% competitive, you still need to cooperate with a klan (or alternatively have several of your characters in the same bracket). And there is nothing you can do about it.[/b]

So you think that it is the klanmates in your bracket which give you the unbeatable advantage and yet you also think that the klans should be given a substantial scoop advantage as well? Interesting.

Also, I think you have a pretty strange notion of what it means to be “100% competitive”. I am competitive every week – I don’t always win but I always compete. The Klan scrubs (i.e. the non-leaders)sacrifice themselves for the greater good at least half the time. That does not make one 100% competitive in my books.

Finally, where the hell is the discussion regarding the destructo medal? Because that is something that would give solo players something to do in the top brackets.

Malaise Posted:

The Klan scrubs (i.e. the non-leaders)sacrifice themselves for the greater good at least half the time.

You have a very distorted notion of Klans, if you really think it’s always that way. I don’t really want to incite flames here, so all I can really say is, you should try to abandon all your prejudice against them and try to look them from the inside.

I don’t think I can help a lot on that subject, but before joining BF (I’m a former solo player), I had the same line of thought as yours.

Fran Posted:

you should try to abandon all your prejudice against them and try to look them from the inside.

My prejudice is very dear to me and I would never abandon it!

Maybe you’re right Fran. All I know is when I see 6 members of Brainfreeze in the same bracket I know that at least 3 of them aren’t competing in any way that I define the term.

scullyangel Posted:

It (raiding) should offer a decent benefit, but should not offer a benefit so overwhelming that every other scoop earning method is pointless.

I couldn’t agree more on this point, and that is my goal from all of this.

scullyangel Posted:

– Keep the 13 per raid cap with only those joined having an impact on the forums held count. There simply needs to be a hard cap on the number of raid scoops that can be earned. If there isn’t it creates the situation where no other scoop earning method matters.

What kind of cap would you suggest? Is 144 fair? That would be 2 times the potential max that you can get for soloing (72). I hate the idea of an arbitrary cap, but if this is the only solution to avoid all these other ridiculous rules, then I’m open to it. If there’s a cap then why should we have a limit at all? Why can’t we just let anyone join? The reason that I put all these rules in is to act as a cap, but if we just put a cap, then the rules aren’t really needed IMO.

scullyangel Posted:

– Keep it so that disabled characters cannot impact the forums. People shouldn’t be able to get around the limits by flinging on visits from characters not joined to a raid. On the flip side, characters that aren’t participating in Dom shouldn’t be able to interrupt raiding either. The limit forces choices and sacrifice and strategy. Those are all awesome things from a gaming perspective.

It’s basically like this today, except that noobs without scoops can pwn forums. So for now I’d likely leave this as is.

scullyangel Posted:

– Get rid of the 15 minute join window. I’ve raided in pretty much every klan that has raided. The main reason people who are interested don’t raid is because of schedule conflicts. After work traffic or whatever should not mean the player can’t join. That whole idea is just silly and I don’t see the point in it.

Yeah I’d have to agree with this.

scullyangel Posted:

– Allow alts to join without earning raid scoops. First alt to join earns klan vanilla scoops, any others do not. Yes, this means that people can feed a main, but when those characters sacrifice vanilla and most times pistachio, they are making a choice that those characters, one of their chosen 5, aren’t going to be medaling. If they don’t medal competitively they will not be in the upper brackets to help support klannies with crowd control – it is a fair trade off.

I don’t know if I agree with this. It’s not really a trade off because I can just do this with one alt one week and the other the next to medal both and I feel that doing this would keep them up in the top brackets. Maybe I’m wrong here. It just seems like too much trouble to allow alts and limit who gets what. I’m thinking we should leave it as is for now.

scullyangel Posted:

– Allow klan raiders to earn full value solo vanilla within a raid. This would help eliminate the idea that only those with alts can contribute effectively. It could mean that as few as 4 players without alts working together could benefit from a raid, while a full 13 would see a very decent return on their time investment. It would also bring some skill and decision making to the whole situation rather than having a “feed Denture chat” mentality that makes raiding monotonous.

Yeah I’d agree with this too. Hopefully it would also reduce people wanting to leech, since they could get their 72 solo vanilla scoop during a raid – it might even be easier to do so.

scullyangel Posted:

– Change the join raid to 2 times per week with no time restriction on when a character can join. Have the counter set during the Domination downtime each Wednesday, so people can’t work the system and sneak an extra raid in.

Yeah I think this makes sense as well.

scullyangel Posted:

Bumping allowable antifreeze to 15 or 20 per day. This would put those scoops at a max of 120 or 160 per week. BINGEBOT’s scaling antifreeze is a cool thought, but uncapping antifreeze is a bad idea. Flezz is a big enough problem as it is with the auction house opening the door to backhanded transfers. I don’t want to see Domination become a game of who got lucky with their .moar file drops or who got away with subtle flezz transfers.

It’s less uncapping and more just scaling how you earn. In theory you could sit there 24/7 and gamble and end up with a handful more scoops, but that time would be better spent coming up with ideas for Chocolate scoops IMO. I do kind of like the idea you mentioned further down about the Mobster backroom wheel of fortune. Only problem is I don’t know how much I like the idea of paying for scoops. I think it would have to give out significantly less scoops, since it takes no time investment (although arguably the flezz took you time to earn)

scullyangel Posted:

Stopping pistachio growth at 100 forums. I bumume Forumbuildr isn’t going to just shut down when we hit 100 forums, but continuing to add pistachio beyond 100 will shift Dom to being a pistachio is all that matters thing and that is as bad as having vanilla positioned as the only thing that matters.

This is likely what will happen.

spacekadt Posted:

The main problem with not letting alts into the same raid is that this completely screws smaller klans.

Hell, even in Brainfreeze we almost never come up with 13 distinct people ready to raid at any given point.

Well the reason we banned it is because people would stack all their alts into a raid and use their alts to get scoops for a main while the main leeched. I could do something ridiculous like if you leave a raid you lose your visits and you need to join a raid with at least 4 visits. That way you wouldn’t want to just leech. Leeching is the reason for most of these restrictions.

spacekadt Posted:

I get that… but look at BoD for instance (god I can’t believe I’m encouraging something that helps them Log in to see images!). They have 4 or 5 people that reliably do raids. They’re a small klan with one major focus. With the changes as they are, there’s NO point in them continuing to raid.

Brainfreeze and GGM both got the Lowest Standards peen in the last week. With us being two of the largest klans and still having a problem getting that many individual bodies together in the same place at the same time without the use of alts, I don’t see klan raiding happening much in the future if this stays in place.

I’m not by any means saying it needs to stay in place, I’m saying, what will stop leeching? You shouldn’t be able to get scoops for nothing. And the no alts rule has been like it is for some time, the recent changes shouldn’t have affected any klan that used alts to raid, because they couldn’t Log in to see images!

This has yet to address a critical problem, specifically this:

It is well and good on paper to limit raids to 13 unique individuals, all of whom are dommers, but it is practically impossible to coordinate pistachio streaks among every player there AND prep forums AND lemon speed rush. As I understand the system being described above (and I’m not sure I do; each successive iteration is getting more complex and difficult to understand), the only way this could effectively work for a klan is a klan getting 13 people together for a full two hours, 11 or 12 of them burning all their visits, and the last leeching then taking advantage of solo vanilla and working their pistachio streak. Essentially this would boil down to a klan deciding who they most wanted to succeed and letting them leech.

I would rather give in to Nicco’s suggestion of making people choose between solo or klan vanilla, but if we do that, klan raids need to be simple enough that they can be coordinated effectively between no more than 5 individuals and leave those individuals free to run their pistachio loops on their own time.

This is the bottom line. Either klan vanilla matters or it doesn’t. Make the system too complex and nobody will use it.

BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:

you can solo once

Can you clarify that? If you raid you can solo once, or everyone can solo once?