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	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Amasius Posted: I don’t see the problem with “leeching” – you sacrifice the visits of 4 alts and can’t do anything else (like disruption or winning medals) with them for the benefit of the 5th alt. Of course only one alt in a raid should get vanilla. If you have a few alts leeching in a raid all members will get less vanilla. Basically raids are then a boost for your main, some vanilla scoops additional to those you get by soloing. Raids shouldn’t be too powerful but they can easily be balanced just by changing the number of participants. All those artificial restrictions like only one raid every 60 hours wouldn’t be necessary. Maybe you’re right. I guess the question is, are we comfortable giving people with alts a boost in Domination. If the answer is “yes” then we should allow alts into raids, limit scoops to one alt and move forward. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Wylin Posted: What else do alts past the 5th one have a use for in domination anymore than disrupting other klan’s raids? To me it sounds like they will miss out on nothing while potentially screwing over a klan raid alot for multiple people that might just get ****ed and decide they should solo raid instead. I liked klan raiding when it was fun, now it just sounds stressful. Alts past the 5th can’t be marked” as pwning a forum anyways, so they couldn’t run interference. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes plk Posted: Bingebot, I appreciate that you’re trying to get a balance here and eliminate leeching, but no matter how you skew the raid benefit, you can’t create more raiders out of thin air. A couple of the raids you noticed that were started were us testing it out (and quickly realizing “oh wait, this won’t work for us at all” ), but we certainly didn’t earn any vanilla from it or anything. Rather than knowing how many raids were started this week, I’d be more interested in knowing how many raid scoops were earned. Zero from us, for sure. The only way I could see a klan actually being able to use this new raiding scheme if they have pretty much all the raiders in the whole game. And that’s not exactly competitive. Unfortunately I can’t currently see that stat, but I’d suspect you’re right. Again, if these restrictions are too much we can allow alts into raids, that should appease most of your issues. That being said I do think that a restriction on the type of vanilla you earn in a given week is the best answer to leeching. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Wylin Posted: Are your numbers bumuming raids will go perfectly? That the non-raiders will not be watching for another klan to try to get to 12? I guess I’ll have to start watching my dom tab again so I can use my alts to destroy other klan’s raids. If people have to choose to only get raiding vanilla, stopping people will be alot more worthwhile. Yes I am to a certain extent.. although I recognize that raid scoops aren’t guaranteed, it only costs you 1 scoop if interference is run whereas you lose a lot more if you don’t get a solo vanilla. I mentioned that above. Actually after the changes are done this week you likely won’t see which forums are pwned by the Raid (something related to programming) so raid interference will be hard unless you know specifically who’s in an enemy raid. In the future we’ll look closer at benefits for raid interruption and make it more possible to do this. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes FalCoN Posted: Direction 1: Possible changes into this direction: More than one character per player, only one char per player earns scoops. How does this stop you from joining with 5 alts, using 4 to get raid Log in to see images! for your main who is leeching? This actually just makes it easier to leech as you need less people and can burn your alt visits on pumping up your main. FalCoN Posted: Direction 2: Players who participate in klan raids are disabled from solo raiding. Then you have to improve klan raiding to make sure that solo’ing does not benefit anyone. This is more what I’m thinking will work. FalCoN Posted: – Definitely limit max. Log in to see images! I like this idea (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes FalCoN Posted: BINGEBOT 2015, read my earlier post and stop doing weird maths stuff. It’s as simple as that: Playing solo, I will usually get at least around 72/48 Log in to see images! (depending if I play with 16 or 12 visits). Also, I have quite a lot freedom (e.g. what forums to pwn and when to play). As stated earlier, the only direction klan raiding could head for if you stick to the non-leeching policy but try to contineously increase the amount of Log in to see images! instead of preparing them. So why the heck do you still calculate using the numbers 72, 144, 234 and 244? The whole case becomes even more complicated if you take into account that you need 13 people (I explained it more extensively in my first post). I am p. certain that you could remove the character limit and there still wouldn’t be any (real) klan raids taking place. Expecting 13 people to use 12 visits is not realistic at all. There definitely should be a klan E-Peen for that. If you want to make sure that no leeching is going on while klan raiding is still a valid option for competitive players, you definitely have to rethink klan vanilla. Or come up with another suggestion. My math is based on 12 visits, not 16 and based on theoretical maxes which I explicitly stated. I agree with your point about raids becoming 3 people pwning 4 forums each if solo Log in to see images! just gives people more of an excuse to raid/leech and solo. So perhaps the only answer is to limit in one way or another what type of vanilla you can get. If you have a suggestion I’m all ears. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Until people stop leeching this is going to be how it is. We’re going to restrict things and gauge the effect. This is an iterative approach and we’re in a much better place then we were. If people can’t/don’t raid, we’ll adjust accordlingly. By my math, bumuming activity every 3 days and if you’re at the end of a pistachio run (with 92 forums)... Solo (this is a theoretical max and can only be achieved in 1 run as pistachio will drop with previous runs): 36 Lemon 40+42+44 Pistachio 72 Vanilla = 234 scoops Raiding: 144 Vanilla You can in theory get solo vanilla inside a raid albeit not much (9 scoops currently) In theory Pistachio is doable here too (40+42+44 Pistachio) but for argument sake, let’s not include it Lemon is a lot harder to get in a raid = 144 scoops So I see what you mean about the lack of benefit towards raiding. Let’s say for a second we doubled the Raid yield (2 scoops for every 12) that would give you 288 vanilla. So the benefit is 50 scoops over solo (plus Pistachio if you’re organized enough). And that’s 50 scoops that are (in my mind) easier to get than solo vanilla (miss 1 visit, you lose 8 scoops) or lemon. And raid earned scoops are consistent, whereas solo are not (because Pistachio shifts). So… maybe double the raid reward is the answer. That being said why wouldn’t people leech anyways?? The only solution that I see at this point is to nuke someone’s ability to get both types (solo vs raid vanilla). Either you’d have to choose what type of vanilla you’re going to earn that week (and be put into an according bracket – like MCB has suggested previously) or we put a time limit on when you can earn which type (if you earn one type of vanilla you can’t earn another type for another 60 hours or something). This is my two cents on balance as things currently stand. Again, none of this is happening for Wednesday, I’m just ranting on what I feel might make things more balanced. In theory. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes spacekadt Posted: Honestly, without alts in the same raid, you’re still not going to get many (if any) raids. If the two largest klans in the game can’t pull together 13 distinct people on a reliable basis, it’s not worth raiding. To hit a “break even” point on vanilla, you need 7 people in the raid with full visits. That’s not counting the loss of lemon and pistachio. Lemon alone is another 3 people with full visits, so now we’re up to 10 people required. Pistachio makes it even harder to break even. Perfect solo = 72 vanilla, 36 lemon and let’s say mid streak for about 60 pistachio for a total of 168 Perfect raid with all 13 people = 145 vanilla The benefit of raiding is what? I honestly see another week where the klans don’t raid and people try to go for solos. We had 39 raids started this week. Not sure how many were successful, but with the changes this week raiding will be easier to keep track of (you’ll at least know how many forums you’ve pwned). You aren’t guaranteed the Lemon scoops currently, and pistachio is only really beneficial every 3 weeks. If you plan your raiding there’s no reason you can’t get Pistachio while you raid. Lemon is a lot harder though. Allowing alts back into Raids would just make the Leeching issue worse. Right now you can leech at the cost of 12 scoops. If alts were in your raid they’d just help with that. I’m not seeing why we should allow alts into raids. Get 13 people together, I’ve seen this happen many times. Would you rather we lower the number so you can get less people? Cause I’ll gladly do that. (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Catt although Posted: Sorry, can you just clarify if multiple alts of the same account are allowed in the same raid? Not currently, it’s on the list of upcoming. I’m still not entirely convinced that it’s a good idea. I’d like to see how these new changes affect raids and domination. I’m open to discussion around the inclusion of alts into raids and the effects. My main goals at this point are to 1) Keep domination balanced for all players 2) keep domination simple so that all players can easily learn how to play With that in mind I’d like to NOT add useless rules (like I did last week). Apparently I’d lost sight of my own goals. (view post)	02/03/2009
	Domination Enhancements Thread Updated OP (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Updated the OP with what we’ll implement this week to get Raids working again Log in to see images! (view post)	02/03/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes spacekadt Posted: and allowing alts into raids? Sure, without restriction. I’m still not CONVINCED. This is just proposed. Log in to see images! I still think that leeches will leech. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Ok after much consideration and discussion this is what I’m thinking: – Show how many forums a raid pwns (we would probably do this by allowing you to name your raid group, then displaying the name on the Klan Domination page) – Each character can only join 2 raids per domination week – Allow officers to create raids (without joining them) – Allow alts into raids – Remove the time limit for joining – Allow 13 people into the raid, you can leave the raid ONLY if you haven’t gotten a scoop or pwned any forums – Change solo vanilla while in a raid from 1 to 8 scoops I’ve also updated the Enhancements thread to reflect this. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes spacekadt Posted: I’m good with this thought, too. I imagine some klans are going to have some issues in the first weeks with people trying to leech and get booted. If that happens, will someone else be able to replace them? (Not at all a huge deal if not, just a curiosity.) I would say no. Otherwise you’d be able to cycle players through the raid and the 13 cap would mean nothing. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Porco Rosso Posted: Okay, but do you think you really need to bother with coding invites? Can the raid just be closed to everybody else after 13 characters join? If you try to join a raid for the third time in a week, you could just get an error like “This character has already participated in two raids this week,” right? I guess having invites gives a greater measure of control, but that seems like something extra you could add on later if you really wanted to. Hmm.. so just it fills to 13.. that’s it. If you join with the wrong alt, tough. If you leave, or are booted, tough. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes spacekadt Posted: Allowing only the chars signed into the raid count for scoops and keeping the alts out of the raid is where things got overly complicated. This was an unintentional bug. Anyone not in the raid should not affect the count. The fact that this was broken for so long does not mean that it is now part of Domination. There should be limits to what you can earn in a raid. I’d rather avoid a hard cap though. spacekadt Posted: Keep the raid limit. Whatever number you like, keep it. And keep the one raid per day per char restriction. But let the alts sign into the raid. How is that really any different from having 13 distinct people signed in? Same number of scoops distributed to the same number of people and you still have the limits of how many visits per person. The difference is that it would allow you to use alts to pump up a leech in the raid. Right now all the unique individuals would have to agree to allow a leech. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes How about.. – Raid admins have 13 invites per raid to give out – You can only accept 2 raid invites per week – Alts are allowed into raids and gain scoops just like anyone else – Solo vanilla inside a raid is 8 (instead of 1) So.. this allows small klans to make a raid, it allows alts to play and get scoops, anyone can join any time during a raid, but only 13 members can partake in a raid. Note that leeches could still be invited into a raid, but with the 8 solo vanilla inside a raid they’d be encouraged to not leech..? I’m sure there are issues with this that I’m not considering. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Porco Rosso Posted: Er, if you’re going to do hard limits for a certain number of days, could we get some kind of scoops earned counter somewhere (split by flavor) so that we can know how many we’ve earned in order to plan things out better? The dom group doesn’t really work so well for that since scoops are constantly being destroyed and used to buy cards. Because keeping track of that so that you don’t needlessly burn visits with no (vanilla) benefit seems like a huge pain to me. I don’t know though; maybe that’s supposed to be part of the challenge? Log in to see images! Also, maybe I’m misunderstanding the revised changes, but are you removing the raid limit of 13 without allowing alts to join raids? I’m not sure what the point of that is since I can’t imagine that more than one or two klans will be able to raid with that many different people anyway. For everybody else, soloing is going to be a much better deal. The key to balancing Domination is coming up with a solution that is simple, that stops the exploits that plague Domination and that is easy to code. Adding counters and such sounds like a bad solution. But the fact that you’d need counters is even worse. Thus why I’m thinking a cap is bad. I’m mostly playing devils advocate, at this point I don’t know what the right answer is, I just don’t think that what scully suggested was the only and best solution. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Catt although Posted: Can you clarify that? If you raid you can solo once, or everyone can solo once? What I meants was.. with 7 days in a week you could solo day 1, then raid day 4, then raid day 7. So that would get you 144 + 144 + 72. This bumumes a cap of 144 vanilla every 3 days, and 2 raids per weeks. But again we’re bordering on ridiculous rules for the sake of complication. Again, I don’t know what the answer is, I just know that something needs to be done to balance the exploiting of raiding. (view post)	02/02/2009
	THIS WEEK: Domination Changes Fortunato Posted: This has yet to address a critical problem, specifically this: It is well and good on paper to limit raids to 13 unique individuals, all of whom are dommers, but it is practically impossible to coordinate pistachio streaks among every player there AND prep forums AND lemon speed rush. As I understand the system being described above (and I’m not sure I do; each successive iteration is getting more complex and difficult to understand), the only way this could effectively work for a klan is a klan getting 13 people together for a full two hours, 11 or 12 of them burning all their visits, and the last leeching then taking advantage of solo vanilla and working their pistachio streak. Essentially this would boil down to a klan deciding who they most wanted to succeed and letting them leech. I would rather give in to Nicco’s suggestion of making people choose between solo or klan vanilla, but if we do that, klan raids need to be simple enough that they can be coordinated effectively between no more than 5 individuals and leave those individuals free to run their pistachio loops on their own time. This is the bottom line. Either klan vanilla matters or it doesn’t. Make the system too complex and nobody will use it. I would agree with this.. Thus I’m thinking we do the following: – Remove the raid limit of 13 – Remove the time limit for joining a raid – Adjust the daily raid restriction to a 2 times weekly restriction – Cap ALL vanilla at 144 for 3 days (double the potential for solo vanilla) Simple. You can raid twice a week, you can solo once, max vanilla for the week is 288 klan vanilla and 72 solo (if you go into the week with 12 visits). (view post)	02/02/2009

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