Updated the OP with what we’ll implement this week to get Raids working again Log in to see images!

Catt although Posted:

Sorry, can you just clarify if multiple alts of the same account are allowed in the same raid?

Not currently, it’s on the list of upcoming. I’m still not entirely convinced that it’s a good idea. I’d like to see how these new changes affect raids and domination. I’m open to discussion around the inclusion of alts into raids and the effects.

My main goals at this point are to 1) Keep domination balanced for all players 2) keep domination simple so that all players can easily learn how to play

With that in mind I’d like to NOT add useless rules (like I did last week). Apparently I’d lost sight of my own goals.

spacekadt Posted:

Honestly, without alts in the same raid, you’re still not going to get many (if any) raids. If the two largest klans in the game can’t pull together 13 distinct people on a reliable basis, it’s not worth raiding.

To hit a “break even” point on vanilla, you need 7 people in the raid with full visits. That’s not counting the loss of lemon and pistachio. Lemon alone is another 3 people with full visits, so now we’re up to 10 people required. Pistachio makes it even harder to break even.

Perfect solo = 72 vanilla, 36 lemon and let’s say mid streak for about 60 pistachio for a total of 168

Perfect raid with all 13 people = 145 vanilla

The benefit of raiding is what? I honestly see another week where the klans don’t raid and people try to go for solos.

We had 39 raids started this week. Not sure how many were successful, but with the changes this week raiding will be easier to keep track of (you’ll at least know how many forums you’ve pwned).

You aren’t guaranteed the Lemon scoops currently, and pistachio is only really beneficial every 3 weeks. If you plan your raiding there’s no reason you can’t get Pistachio while you raid. Lemon is a lot harder though.

Allowing alts back into Raids would just make the Leeching issue worse. Right now you can leech at the cost of 12 scoops. If alts were in your raid they’d just help with that. I’m not seeing why we should allow alts into raids. Get 13 people together, I’ve seen this happen many times. Would you rather we lower the number so you can get less people? Cause I’ll gladly do that.

Until people stop leeching this is going to be how it is. We’re going to restrict things and gauge the effect. This is an iterative approach and we’re in a much better place then we were. If people can’t/don’t raid, we’ll adjust accordlingly.

By my math, bumuming activity every 3 days and if you’re at the end of a pistachio run (with 92 forums)...

Solo (this is a theoretical max and can only be achieved in 1 run as pistachio will drop with previous runs):

36 Lemon

40+42+44 Pistachio

72 Vanilla

= 234 scoops

Raiding:

144 Vanilla

You can in theory get solo vanilla inside a raid albeit not much (9 scoops currently)

In theory Pistachio is doable here too (40+42+44 Pistachio) but for argument sake, let’s not include it

Lemon is a lot harder to get in a raid

= 144 scoops

So I see what you mean about the lack of benefit towards raiding.

Let’s say for a second we doubled the Raid yield (2 scoops for every 12) that would give you 288 vanilla. So the benefit is 50 scoops over solo (plus Pistachio if you’re organized enough). And that’s 50 scoops that are (in my mind) easier to get than solo vanilla (miss 1 visit, you lose 8 scoops) or lemon. And raid earned scoops are consistent, whereas solo are not (because Pistachio shifts).

So… maybe double the raid reward is the answer.

That being said why wouldn’t people leech anyways?? The only solution that I see at this point is to nuke someone’s ability to get both types (solo vs raid vanilla).

Either you’d have to choose what type of vanilla you’re going to earn that week (and be put into an according bracket – like MCB has suggested previously) or we put a time limit on when you can earn which type (if you earn one type of vanilla you can’t earn another type for another 60 hours or something).

This is my two cents on balance as things currently stand.

Again, none of this is happening for Wednesday, I’m just ranting on what I feel might make things more balanced. In theory.

FalCoN Posted:

BINGEBOT 2015, read my earlier post and stop doing weird maths stuff.

It’s as simple as that: Playing solo, I will usually get at least around 72/48 Log in to see images! (depending if I play with 16 or 12 visits). Also, I have quite a lot freedom (e.g. what forums to pwn and when to play).

As stated earlier, the only direction klan raiding could head for if you stick to the non-leeching policy but try to contineously increase the amount of Log in to see images! instead of preparing them. So why the heck do you still calculate using the numbers 72, 144, 234 and 244?

The whole case becomes even more complicated if you take into account that you need 13 people (I explained it more extensively in my first post). I am p. certain that you could remove the character limit and there still wouldn’t be any (real) klan raids taking place. Expecting 13 people to use 12 visits is not realistic at all. There definitely should be a klan E-Peen for that.

If you want to make sure that no leeching is going on while klan raiding is still a valid option for competitive players, you definitely have to rethink klan vanilla. Or come up with another suggestion.

My math is based on 12 visits, not 16 and based on theoretical maxes which I explicitly stated. I agree with your point about raids becoming 3 people pwning 4 forums each if solo Log in to see images! just gives people more of an excuse to raid/leech and solo. So perhaps the only answer is to limit in one way or another what type of vanilla you can get.

If you have a suggestion I’m all ears.

Wylin Posted:

Are your numbers bumuming raids will go perfectly? That the non-raiders will not be watching for another klan to try to get to 12? I guess I’ll have to start watching my dom tab again so I can use my alts to destroy other klan’s raids. If people have to choose to only get raiding vanilla, stopping people will be alot more worthwhile.

Hey, I already mentioned that earlier! *needs appreciation*

So yeah, counter-raiding is definitely going to experience a major boost. (And this is why you should at least limit dominating forums to the 5 Domination-enabled characters… which wouldn’t have too much inpact on the number of counter-raids anyway.) The combination of Log in to see images! FalCoN edited this message on 02/03/2009 3:46PM

Bingebot, I appreciate that you’re trying to get a balance here and eliminate leeching, but no matter how you skew the raid benefit, you can’t create more raiders out of thin air. A couple of the raids you noticed that were started were us testing it out (and quickly realizing “oh wait, this won’t work for us at all” ), but we certainly didn’t earn any vanilla from it or anything. Rather than knowing how many raids were started this week, I’d be more interested in knowing how many raid scoops were earned. Zero from us, for sure. The only way I could see a klan actually being able to use this new raiding scheme if they have pretty much all the raiders in the whole game. And that’s not exactly competitive.

plk Posted:

Bingebot, I appreciate that you’re trying to get a balance here and eliminate leeching, but no matter how you skew the raid benefit, you can’t create more raiders out of thin air. A couple of the raids you noticed that were started were us testing it out (and quickly realizing “oh wait, this won’t work for us at all” ), but we certainly didn’t earn any vanilla from it or anything. Rather than knowing how many raids were started this week, I’d be more interested in knowing how many raid scoops were earned. Zero from us, for sure. The only way I could see a klan actually being able to use this new raiding scheme if they have pretty much all the raiders in the whole game. And that’s not exactly competitive.

Unfortunately I can’t currently see that stat, but I’d suspect you’re right. Again, if these restrictions are too much we can allow alts into raids, that should appease most of your issues.

That being said I do think that a restriction on the type of vanilla you earn in a given week is the best answer to leeching.

BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:

it only costs you 1 scoop if interference is run whereas you lose a lot more if you don’t get a solo vanilla.

What else do alts past the 5th one have a use for in domination anymore than disrupting other klan’s raids? To me it sounds like they will miss out on nothing while potentially screwing over a klan raid alot for multiple people that might just get ****ed and decide they should solo raid instead.

I liked klan raiding when it was fun, now it just sounds stressful.

Indeed it would be the simplest solution just to allow klan raiders to have ~ 40-50 bonus Log in to see images! itself and not how you can earn it… though this might make klan raiding less challenging, so maybe restricting the available visits is indeed a better solution. However, I wonder if it was necessary to restrict the contributor characters per player to one if you already restricted the overall amount of contributor characters.

By the way, you might want to consider to influence klan raiding in a way that it becomes more challenging than it is atm. For example, introducing a harsh time limit (e.g. 30 minutes/day) could make sure that klan raiding still remains attractive for competitive players without making it too exhausting.

Yes, those solutions are not really good-looking and far from perfect, but at least they would work.