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SimplyTHEBEST's Flamebate Posts
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Troll Builds (level 35)As a camwhore: Without eq: Offense 48 Defense 5 Luck 1 Frugality 1 Charisma 21 Upkeep 5
With best eqs and .moars in the game(*): Offense 159 Defense 120 Luck 35 Frugality 22 Charisma 67 Upkeep 5
I suppose that I could take one or two levels out of Egomania (L11), but I kinda need that health. I have NO idea how an emokid is pulling 159 offense.
(*)Masterball instead of headset. There’s only like TWO of those in the game, so they don’t count. (view post) |
09/10/2009 | |
Web 1.0 Veterans causes font glitchesVisiting “Web 1.0 Veterans” causes the forum’s panel to switch fonts, leading to the pwnage bar, battle log, and dead-thread screens all being malformed. Once you kill it, it crops off part of the fans icon. (In Firefox 3.5.3, anyway) (view post) |
09/10/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsRavaryn Posted:
Raising prices doesn’t solve the balance issue, it just hands a hefty advantage to people who have played longer. While that may be your intent, it’s hardly relevant to THIS topic. (view post) |
04/11/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionszagerblag Posted:
Poor planning, tbh. When Ep2 launched the Hacker was vastly overpowered, and CZ responded by nerfing it down until it was still powerful but more in line with the other clbumes.
Until .moar files launched. With the ability to add +50 offense to every clbum hackers suddenly started to be outpaced by clbumes with higher base damage. Meanwhile, trolls went from being slightly overpowered to being god tier.
Now that we have itembuildr we’re seeing hackers being left further behind while trolls leap further ahead.
Again, I need to crunch the numbers later to issue revised stats based on the usage of the Master Ball. (view post) |
04/08/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsEarly/mid-game balance is a whole other kettle of fish, and since you’re using both different abilities AND different EQ they can and should be balanced separately.
On a related note, the release of itembuildr has resulted in The Master Ball. That exaggerates the clbum balance issues – trolls get even more overpowered, hackers are left even further behind, etc… (view post) |
04/06/2009 | |
Caturday and Hamster attacks for old skool players?It seems to be a ‘just for fun’ suggestion, and I don’t think that anybody could claim with a straight face that it would be unbalancing late-game…
Perhaps they should be available to anybody who either got them before switching clbumes AND/OR hit the level cap. That seems to be the best way of handling things. (view post) |
04/02/2009 | |
1337 Peen Suggestion!Anybody can do 1337 damage with Ophelia and 162 offense, if my calculations are correct. However, only the Hacker can get that much offense, so it’s kinda moot. (view post) |
03/09/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsI’m thinking that we might get a rebalance sooner if we come up with a list of changes to bring things back in line. (view post) |
03/03/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsWoweeZowee Posted:
The QFT thing may count as trolling, so you might want to avoid that.
Anyway, there are more balance issues than Trolls being overpowered, most of which seem to stem from the .moar file stat boosts: *The increasing availability of top-tier .moar files has boosted Hacker damage the least, followed by Camwhore. *Base Damage nerfs greatly decreased the effectiveness of the Camwhore, and the subsequent buffing of the forums (particularly with regard to making Defense more important) resulted in Camwhores being highly ineffective. *The tying of Defense boosts to Offense boosts in .moar files has caused Emokids to take longer to reach peak Ego, with a result of slowing them down and wasting Tears while waiting. *The increase in the Base Damage of Trolls and the decrease in the refresh times for their best attacks had them doing the most damage, and the rise of .moar files has noticeably exacerbated that problem.
TL;DR: Camwhores suck balls, Hackers got robbed, CZ won’t let Emokids cry anymore, and Trolls are ****ing beefed-up like the Fist of the North Star. (view post) |
03/02/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsAdapt Posted:
You make a false bumumption there; it’s not the point on the Y axis that matters, it’s the area under the curve. You can achieve the same average damage with one or two strong attacks with long refreshes, so I don’t know why you think the attacks would have to all be “too similar”. (view post) |
03/02/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsCrinkz Posted:
SimplyTHEBEST Posted:
Also, how about allowing Emokids to use Up-Suck on any forum? That seems simpler than a cut ability. (view post) |
03/02/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsMeatLoafFan Posted:
That would boost the Hacker’s average base damage per attack to 162.5, which would result in an attack power of 1973 damage per hit on EQ alone and 2606 damage per hit with 51 points on offense.
That would make the hacker do plenty of damage (Most likely too much, if you factor in their close-second-best defense stat), but also rob the Hacker of any sort of unique or interesting play mechanics. We don’t want to do that.
The Hacker needs a buff, but when that buff comes it will be in the form of boosted base damage. The long refresh times are staying.
zagerblag Posted:
Use this in the meantime.
——
zagerblag Posted:
I’m working on that:
SimplyTHEBEST Posted:(view post) |
03/02/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsBuffing everybody to counter an imbalance isn’t that great of an idea; it quickly deteriorates into DBZ-like absurd levels of boosting. Besides, when you have Trolls talking about how overpowered they are, you know it’s time for some nerfing.
That’s not to say that the problem should be solved by nerfing clbumes that are better than others, but that things need to be brought back in line with what’s reasonable. Trolls need to go down a peg or three, Camwhores need a boost, Hackers need a little buff, and what Emokids need is more of a correction than anything.
MeatLoafFan Posted:
I didn’t ignore it, I spent several hours working out the math and details for each of the main clbumes in order to establish a more solid metric to judge the game balance. As it turns out Hackers do indeed appear to need a damage buff, but bantering about the base damage itself as ‘proof’ is intentionally misleading.
Adapt Posted: |
03/02/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsfuthermocker Posted:
Putting points in Upkeep negates that. With 10 Upkeep I pay less than 14,000 in repairs for every four visits I make to L35 forums. Considering how long it takes to save up for powerful Eq, the repairs cost should be a non-issue once you actually have the item.
futhermocker Posted:
“Balanced” does not mean “Identical”, it means that the strengths and weaknesses of each clbum make them equally competent on average but not necessarily in any given aspect.
futhermocker Posted:
I understand both your viewpoint and why you feel that way, but I don’t agree with you. Trolls have the highest defense (Albeit closely followed by Hacker), and so need to have lower damage than other clbumes to compensate. One clbum having the highest damage and highest defense is the opposite of balanced.
futhermocker Posted:
No. Glbumes have always been available at the Ppwn Shoppe, although only sporadically.
futhermocker Posted:
That’s part of my suggestion for un-nerfing Camwhores, but that doesn’t solve the problem of overpowered trolls.
futhermocker Posted:
Thank you! Please, share your new build once it’s ready.
——
futhermocker Posted:
When I spec for taking-on level 35 forums, I put 43 Upgrade Points into Egomania (L16), the rest in Offense, and burn consumables to make-up the difference. Also, prior to obtaining Pink Floyd I was taking 400+ damage per hit. Pink Floyd brought that down to +360.
Unless I made a math error, without points in Offense it would take me 4 attacks to pwn each thread, resulting in a maximum possible loss of +12,960 ego, requiring that I put 121UP (L42) into it if I want to insure that I require no 5-HTPs.
If you’d like, I can try it out once I finish my streak. Should be good for a laugh. Log in to see images! (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsPossibly a Cabbage Posted:
These numbers are bumuming that no upgrade points are spent at all, which is far from typical play. Until we see actual builds, it’s too soon to make any kind of conclusion. Also, Hackers have 40 more defense than Camwhores, which means that while Hackers do 91.052% as much damage as a Camwhore, they also have 144.444% of a Camwhore’s Defense. Without somebody spading Defense, we don’t know how important that really is. Likewise, without being able to compare real builds we can’t actually see how these differences play out. (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsOk, I’ve done some more work and produced optimal EQ builds, total UP bonuses, total offense bonuses, and other such things for all clbumes.
——
Notes: Prior to this point, I had failed to notice the luck +2 that the ****ing on Firewalls™ Starter Pack provides. I will be adding 8UP to hacker totals to compensate.
I’m also now accounting for the free point of offense that everybody gets.
Optimal Book: What Do You Call a Democrat at the Bottom of the Ocean?: * Offense +8 * Defense +8 * Luck +8
16 combined (48UP +8) 8off
Hacker: I Almost Had Sex With a Woman: Memoirs of a Hacker Hero * Offense +10 * PP +50 (30up) 10off
UP per clbum:
Camwhore: 224UP Emokid: 221UP Hacker: 531UP(* Memoirs subbed for Democrat for PP bonus) Troll: 380UP
——
Optimal .moar files:
INCIT photos to remove for being patently unfunny.sdoc: * Luck +7 * Defense +7 * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 * Charisma +7
14 combined (42UP+14) 7off
pink floyd – darkside full album (ttly syncs w/ wzrd of oz at 2:43 awesome!!!).hear: * Offense +30 * Defense +30
60 combined (180up) 30off
Where Da Gold At (Map).xpeg: * Defense +7 +7 * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 * Charisma +7 14 combined (42UP +7) 7off
useless program that only wastes space.exec: * Ego +130 * Defense +6 * Offense +6 12 combined (36UP) 6off
****.MILF.asian. mammary glands.great timesshot.latina. interracial.anal. girls.dvda: * Luck +7 * Defense +7 * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 * Charisma +7 14 combined (42UP+14) 7off
Total: +377UP, +57off
Hacker: Riprogrammatori.1995.iTALiANo.cam.DiVERTi.LZ.YViD-iMC.divy Condition: 100% – Mint
* Luck +7 * Defense +7 * Offense +7 * Charisma +7 * Max Processing Power +160 14 combined (42up+7) 7off
Total .moar+book UP: Camwhore: 601UP Emokid: 598UP Hacker: 901UP(* Replacing **** with Ripro for PP bonus) Troll: 757UP
——
Clbum: Initial+Base+Earbleeder+Book+.moar= Camwhore: 1+9+18+8+57=93 Emokid: 1+29+0+8+57=95 Hacker: 1+60+18+10+57=146 Troll: 1+10+18+8+57=94
Total*0.07633=Damage bonus Damage bonus+1=Damage Multiplier Damage Multiplier*100=Damage as percent of base damage
Camwhore: 93*0.07633=7.09869+1=8.09869= 809.869% Emokid: 95*0.07633=7.25135+1=8.25135= 825.135% Hacker: 146*0.07633=11.14418+1=12.14418= 1214.418% Troll: 94*0.07633=7.17502+1=8.17502= 817.502%
Damage as percent of base damage
Camwhore: 809.869% Emokid: 825.135% Hacker: 1214.418% Troll: 817.502%
—-
Highest damage output attack cycle: Camwhore: Fetish pics(225)->Hand Bra(200)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 212.5 Adjusted: 212.5*8.09869= 1721
Emokid: Everybody Hurts(230)->Quoth the Raven(175)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 202.5(*) Adjusted: 202.5*8.25135=1671(*) (*Base, not adjusted for bonuses from health loss)
Hacker: ipz(205)->avtr(105)->Recipes(200)/Ophelia(100)/flipr(95)->404(120)->avtr(105)->Recipes(200)/Ophelia(100)/flipr(95)->avtr(105)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 129.0 Adjusted: 129.0*12.14418=1567
Troll: Political Flamebait(350)->Shock Sites(220)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 285 Adjusted: 285*8.17502=2330
——
I think it’s worth noting that I have a near-optimal set of offense .moar files (1 offense short), and with almost every UP I have put into offense (10UP on “Skin” tree, 148UP on offense(L51), 7UP on Defense (L4), 9 on Upkeep(L9), and 1 on Luck(L1)) I still only hit for ~2.7k.
I am contemplating creating a Google Doc to make all this easier, and to replace the now-outdated upgrade calculator. (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionszagerblag Posted:
A math error that I’ve since corrected. Thanks again ^^;;
zagerblag Posted:
I’ll do another set for those, then.
zagerblag Posted:
So, is that agreement with my suggestion for Hackers? Alrighty.
zagerblag Posted:
That seems to be what Bridget is saying.
So, at the moment, it’s not inaccurate to say that experienced Hackers and Emokids approve of my suggestions for their respective clbumes. ^^ (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsfuthermocker Posted:
That doesn’t actually make a lot of sense, since the end-game is distinct from normal gameplay. If clbumes aren’t balanced in the end-game then it quickly grows stale and boring. Also, the difficulty when playing through the game is entirely dependent on how you choose to play. When I went through I bought the cheap equipment then the best equipment without much in the way of the mid-range equipment, and that resulted in the game being a bit tough at first followed by being fairly easy. (Of course, .moar files have come out since then and have thrown all the playbalance into chaos. Also, Camwhores got a few big nerfs along the way.)
futhermocker Posted:
Your pattern fails with the Camwhore, as the camwhore clbum is the weakest in the end-game. D: If you take the time to gear your chars out, the difference should be significant.
On a related note, could you please provide your current build (EQ/Stats)? I can’t work this kinda stuff out without more information. (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionszagerblag Posted:
Give me an optimal build that I can use as a baseline and we can work from there, but as it stands there’s too much ambiguity for me to go with real builds.
Also, if I did use real builds, then you would have called me on the builds being crappy.
zagerblag Posted:
If that gets people to provide me with actual player data to work with, then so be it.
zagerblag Posted:
Ok, I’ve edited my post to use that instead. Mine had an average base damage of 124.5 versus the 101.1 of yours, but I guess you’re going for increased flexibility instead of raw damage.
zagerblag Posted:
Sadly, that’s quite a bit harder to model.
zagerblag Posted:
CZ has said they plan to split the speedrun boards based on clbum, and turn them from real time to a round count. I’m banking on that happening first, since then the Troll doesn’t need to have a high DPR to get scoops and finish jobs. Their high defense will actually be enough of a benefit on it’s own.
——
the Remainder Posted:
When you consider that I admitted to being biased and asked for other people to help fix that, it makes me wonder why you would even bother to post in this thread in the first place.
Also, I am under the impression that Camwhores are at the greatest disadvantage when it comes to capability. If somebody can show that to be mistaken, then obviously my suggestions are going to change.
Aside from that, this is mostly about end-game balance since that allows us to make a lot of simplifying bumumptions with decent accuracy. You’re not even close to level 35 yet, so you aren’t really in a position to contribute that much.
the Remainder Posted:
Egomania, not ego, and unless you’re putting zero UP into Egomania (Which would result in you having less than 700 ego, even with the best ego-boosting eq and .moar files) then my suggested change would have zero impact on how you play the game. However, people who would rather spend those UP that would have gone to Defense on other things would be given more flexibility.
the Remainder Posted:
Camwhores didn’t get better glbumes, Emokids were denied better glbumes. It’s not clbum equipment if basically anybody can use it.
——
Possibly a Cabbage Posted:
Fair enough, but there are other factors at play here. Hackers have almost as much defense as Trolls, and if their damage is boosted too much then they’re going to be out of balance. At the moment Hackers are about on-par with Emokids, as near as I can tell, and that’s the level of effectiveness that Trolls and Camwhores need to be brought to.
——
I’m going to offer my list of EQ that provides stats (Not including secondaries or Ego, and not including EQ I’ve already listed) as a Camwhore build.
Democrat: * Offense +8 * Defense +8 * Luck +8
16 combined (48UP +8)
BIG Will:
* Luck +6 * Max Ego +145 * Offense +6 * Frugality +6 * Charisma +6
(24UP+12)
pink floyd: * Offense +30 * Defense +30
60 combined (180up)
YOU.leer: * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 (21UP +7)
Useless: * Defense +6 * Offense +6 12 combined (36UP)
****.MILF: * Luck +7 * Defense +7 * Offense +7 * Frugality +7 * Charisma +7 14 combined (42UP+14)
Total: +392UP, (+64off)
Combined total for all Camwhore EQ and bonuses: 557 UP (Including +91 offense)
If others would be so kind as to post their own eq lists, that would help out quite a bit. (view post) |
03/01/2009 | |
Community discussion: Clbum balance suggestionsOptimal clbum equipment + starter packs: Camwhore: Red Strap-Ons™ * Max Sexiness +75 * Offense +5 * Defense +5 * Luck +5 Professor Tightly’s Old-Fashioned™ Corset * Max Sexiness +250 * Charisma +7 * Luck +7 * Defense +7 Glbumes are no longer relevant as they are actually cheaper to buy at auction than the store for a person of average frugality, and so are available to every clbum but emokid. Starter pack: Who’s That ****?™ Starter Pack * Charisma +5 * Offense +1
Total bonus: +9 offense/+12 defense. +21 combined (63 UP eq), +12 points in luck (12 points UP eq). 75 UP total
Emokid: Lobe Stretching * Max Tears +325 * Offense +8 * Defense +8 Nautical Star * Max Tears +225 * Offense +5 * Defense +5 First Cut is the Deepest™ Starter Pack * Charisma +1 * Offense +4 * Defense +3
Total bonus: +29/+25 +54 combined (162 UP eq),
Emokids start off with mediocre DPR, but their damage bonus to damage quickly boosts their output. They are the only clbum that can’t wear glbumes, but if they could it would be enough to make them unquestionably the most powerful clbum.
Hacker: Beast0r High-Speed Cables (x4)
* Defense +15 * Offense +15 * Luck +10 Total bonus: +60/+60 +120 combined (360 UP eq), +40 points in luck (40 points UP eq). 400 UP total
Hackers can get enough PP from .moar files to make up for using x4 cables, and they don’t have to sacrifice much (if any) offense to do it. That gives them a serious stat advantage that more or less offsets their low base attack power.
Troll: Tumorous Kidney * Max Douchebaggery: 600 * Offense: 10 * Defense: 35 You Little ****™! Starter Pack * Defense +8
Total bonus: +10/+67 +77 combined (231 UP eq)
Trolls have insanely high base damage, and the low offense granted by their Eq doesn’t make a lot of difference once you factor in .moar files. The high defense just means that they can put fewer points into egomania than other clbumes, and don’t need to spend as much time healing.
—-
UP per clbum:
Camwhore: 75UP Emokid: 162UP Hacker: 400UP Troll: 231UP
Earbleeders:
* Charisma +25 * Offense +18 * Defense +12
+30 combined (90 UP eq)
UP per clbum with Earbleeders:
Camwhore: 165UP Emokid: 162UP Hacker: 490UP Troll: 321UP
—-
Offense modifiers to damage as per above without Earbleeders:
Camwhore: +68.697% Damage Emokid: +221.357% Damage Hacker: +457.98% Damage Troll: +76.33% Damage
Offense modifiers to damage as per above with Earbleeders:
Camwhore: +206.091% Damage Emokid: +221.357% Damage Hacker: +595.374% Damage Troll: +213.724% Damage
—-
Highest damage output attack cycle: Camwhore: Fetish pics(225)->Hand Bra(200)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 212.5 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 358.5 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 650
Emokid: Everybody Hurts(230)->Quoth the Raven(175)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 202.5(*) Adjusted without Earbleeders: 651(*) Adjusted with Earbleeders: N/A (*Base, not adjusted for bonuses from health loss)
Hacker: ipz(205)->avtr(105)->flipr(95)->avtr(105)->404(120)->avtr(105)->flipr(95)->Recipes(200)->avtr(105)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 126.1 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 704 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 876.8
Troll: Political Flamebait(350)->Shock Sites(220)->Loop Average Damage per cycle round: 285 Adjusted without Earbleeders: 502.54 Adjusted with Earbleeders: 892.1
—-
Of course, all these are just factoring in base stats, and don’t account for playstyle. Hackers, for example, can’t sustain a cycle like that without using PP restoratives, and Emokids get a damage boost equal to the percent of their health that is gone. This means that, in practice, Emokids do much more damage (~+50%, as a ballpark figure) while Hackers do a bit less (Dropping flipr and one or more of avtrs, for example). Further, since UP distribution varies from player to player I can’t really create a ‘typical’ build for showing ‘normal’ end-game point distribution. However, the high defense of the Hacker and Troll free-up points for other things. Also, the Hacker’s initial offense bonus is somewhat dampened by all the offense boosts available (UP, .moar files, books, etc… ), while the Troll’s is exacerbated.
I wrote this up to show that the low base damage and long cycle times that the Hacker suffers from are offset by the clbum’s large stat boosts, while the high base damage of the Troll has no such weakness.
—-
TL;DR: Hackers aren’t actually all that bad off. They’re pretty close to being in balance with Emokids, and fixing balance issues with them will have to wait until Camwhores and Trolls are brought back in-line.
Edit: Revised hacker loop as per suggestion. Edit 2: Corrected math error. (view post) |
03/01/2009 |