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Religion If God doesn't exist..

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

MC Banhammer Posted:

You can just as easily say “the universe does exist, and apparently by the hand of a creator” and be just as accurate.

You’re half right. There’s no evidence for a creator, so unfortunately, all you’ve done is disagree without providing another option.

EDIT: I just want to make sure I’m in the right section of Flamebate… this is the civil discussion area, isn’t it? Constructive and respectful? Just checking. MCB, this was not directed at you, I just didn’t want to make another post to say this.

Moniker edited this message on 09/04/2009 4:54PM

Dr Death

Avatar: 198357 Tue Jul 28 15:01:09 -0400 2009

[Team Obvious]

Level 1 Re-Re

My parents seemed to place everything and everyone else around me first.

God is a pretty cool guy- eh creates life and doesn’t afraid of anything.

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

Moniker Posted:

EDIT: I just want to make sure I’m in the right section of Flamebate… this is the civil discussion area, isn’t it? Constructive and respectful? Just checking. MCB, this was not directed at you, I just didn’t want to make another post to say this.

I didn’t take it as arguing with me. It’s a civilized debate (with much humor interspersed).

And in case it isn’t apparent yet, I’m just trying to poke holes in everyone’s arguments. Unless I can find a solid, convincing, shatter-proof argument, I’m going to stick with my beliefs.

(And I don’t honestly expect to find such an argument, especially on Forumwarz of all places)

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

MC Banhammer Posted:

Unless I can find a solid, convincing, shatter-proof argument, I’m going to stick with my beliefs.

I can respect that. I take it your beliefs involve some sort of creator? Something like deism, at the very least?

I’d be interested to know why you believe what you believe. The onus is not on me to disprove God, it’s on believers to prove what they believe is true. See Russell’s Teapot for more.

But bumuming the burden of proof is on me, what sort of shatter-proof argument would be acceptable? Only I can’t imagine what I could say to disprove the existence of something that supposedly exists outside of time and space.

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

Moniker Posted:

The onus is not on me to disprove God, it’s on believers to prove what they believe is true.

??? There’s no onus on me, because there’s no penalty on me for NOT proving it. However, theoretically, there could be a penalty on you for not believing it. Which is the more logical course of action?

Moniker Posted:

what sort of shatter-proof argument would be acceptable?

I don’t believe there is one, at this point in human history. Even evolution is a theory. I doubt anyone could prove conclusively that there is a deity who created the universe, any more than one could prove conclusively that there is NOT a deity who created the universe.

Which is all actually a different discussion than what I believe the OP intended. If I may be so bold as to reword it, I think he’s asking “If there is no deity who created the universe, then where did the universe come from?”

Indiana Jonas

Avatar: 13850 2011-09-21 18:58:49 -0400
13

[Nuclear Controvers-
y Fallout Shelter
]

Level 35 Troll

XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA

MC Banhammer Posted:

And in case it isn’t apparent yet, I’m just trying to poke holes in everyone’s arguments. Unless I can find a solid, convincing, shatter-proof argument, I’m going to stick with my beliefs.

(And I don’t honestly expect to find such an argument, especially on Forumwarz of all places)

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

I believe a giant cosmic Eagle shat out all the different iterations of the “universe” and that red shift is being caused because our “universe” is in a bubble that is forming in one of the **** piles as it’s being heated by a multi-dimensional megastar. Oh and the Eagle eats old **** once it’s thoroughly baked by the megastar thats how it gets nutrients to **** out more universes.

Where did the Eagle come from? Irrelevant. For me it’s all about the Eagles and digestive tracts.

truth is staring you in the face bro.

Question to all the atheists out there. Why are many of you so fervent in trying to disprove God? If you are right, there will be no “told you so” moment. If you really completely know that there is no God, why waste your time and your breath?

If your answer is “because we know we’re right” or “because believing in God is stupid” please go watch pale blue dot.

Indiana Jonas

Avatar: 13850 2011-09-21 18:58:49 -0400
13

[Nuclear Controvers-
y Fallout Shelter
]

Level 35 Troll

XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA XAHIRA

Moniker Posted:

I can respect that. I take it your beliefs involve some sort of creator? Something like deism, at the very least?

I’d be interested to know why you believe what you believe. The onus is not on me to disprove God, it’s on believers to prove what they believe is true. See Russell’s Teapot for more.

But bumuming the burden of proof is on me, what sort of shatter-proof argument would be acceptable? Only I can’t imagine what I could say to disprove the existence of something that supposedly exists outside of time and space.

Expect the onus is not on believers either, because the entire notion of “God” falls outside of logical constraints. There will never be a “proof” either way. All you will have is a belief in God and your faith to back it, or a non-belief in God and your faith to back it.

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

I’ll take these in reverse order.

MC Banhammer Posted:

”If there is no deity who created the universe, then where did the universe come from?”

This bumumes the universe had a beginning, and that it needed a cause, and that at one time, it did not exist. Of course, time only came into existence with the universe, so the question is invalid to begin with.

MC Banhammer Posted:

...there could be a penalty on you for not believing it. Which is the more logical course of action?

Pascal’s Wager.

MC Banhammer Posted:

I don’t believe there is one, at this point in human history.

Since atheism is a lack of belief in any god, I respectfully suggest that you’re an atheist. It doesn’t speak to knowledge – I don’t know there is no god – but I do not believe in any gods. Therefore, I am an atheist.

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

If your answer is “because we know we’re right” or “because believing in God is stupid” please go watch pale blue dot.

Build a strawman and burn it down.

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

Why are many of you so fervent in trying to disprove God?

Because critical thinking is important, and when you believe the omnipotent creator of the universe wants you to do something, no matter how terrible, you’re likely to go ahead and do it. For more, read Earth history.

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

Expect the onus is not on believers either

Yes, it is.

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

because the entire notion of “God” falls outside of logical constraints.

I agree.

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

All you will have is a belief in God and your faith to back it, or a non-belief in God and a complete and utter lack of evidence to back it.

Fixed that for you.

Moniker edited this message on 09/04/2009 5:20PM

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

Moniker Posted:

I respectfully suggest that you’re an atheist.

Oh, I’m not. I believe there is a supreme deity who created the universe and runs it from day to day and who will dispense final justice to all people who ever lived, at some time in the future.

But I can’t prove it, and I won’t bother trying.

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

MC Banhammer Posted:

But I can’t prove it, and I won’t bother trying.

If you can’t prove it, then there must not be any evidence. If there is no evidence, then I’m curious as to why you believe it.

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

Moniker Posted:

If you can’t prove it, then there must not be any evidence. If there is no evidence, then I’m curious as to why you believe it.

You can’t prove your viewpoint either. So I guess there’s no evidence for that one. I’m curious why you believe it.

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

MC Banhammer Posted:

You can’t prove your viewpoint either. So I guess there’s no evidence for that one. I’m curious why you believe it.

I’m not making an bumertion. I don’t believe in god because there is no evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the bumertion, not on the one refuting it. Philosophy 101. You have to know better than this.

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

Moniker Posted:

I’m not making an bumertion. I don’t believe in god because there is no evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the bumertion, not on the one refuting it. Philosophy 101. You have to know better than this.

So what are you positing? That the universe has always existed? That it was created via a Big Bang? Please state your case, and then the burden is on YOU to prove it.

man-man

Avatar: 156485 2010-01-24 16:36:14 -0500
24

[Harem and Sushi Bar]

Level 69 Hacker

Selfish fine upstanding member of society

Moniker Posted:

Philosophy 101. You have to know better than this.

I get the feeling that he’s making sure that you know it, or at least making sure that it’s been said by someone.

I got the same feeling when he threw in Pascal’s Wager… in fact, I propose that MCB exists in this thread to be a counterargument to everyone and make sure that we cover all the normal ground.

To test this theory by experiment, we need a True Believerâ„¢ to post their views and see how MCB responds.

man-man edited this message on 09/04/2009 5:39PM

Ricket

MODERATOR
Avatar: 4300 2011-11-01 00:56:47 -0400
100

[The Scrotal Safety-
Commission
]

Level 69 Troll

Good poster, upvoted.

Catt although Posted:

Also, why does no one ever propose the theory that there was a creator of the universe (or at least our part of it) but like everything else it had a finite lifespan and is now dead?

Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, wrote “God’s Debris” which suggests that an omniscient, omnipotent god annihilated himself, as it knew everything except its own nonexistence, which resulted in the Big Bang.

It’s available for free online, but I haven’t read it because I really hate reading a book’s worth of text on my computer screen.

Anyway, onto the OP’s question.

Inertia Posted:

Who made the universe?

Looking for a cause (personified or not) does not necessarily make sense. We’re beings trapped within our universe, understanding 3 spacial dimensions, and time. If time is a result of the Big Bang, and creation is a process that requires time, I don’t see how anything can “create” the Big Bang.

Moniker

Avatar: 132630 Thu Mar 26 18:33:33 -0400 2009
1

[7 VIBRATING DOLDOES]

Level 35 Troll

“Problem Child IV”

MC Banhammer Posted:

So what are you positing? That the universe has always existed?

Frankly, I don’t know. And I’m okay with that. What I’m not okay with is pretending or claiming to know the answer when that is manifestly not the case.

I do know that it is more likely the universe has always existed than it is something outside of nature, apart from it, and with no evidence to support its existence, was responsible for the creation of the universe. In order to create the universe, god would need to be infinitely exponentially more complex than the universe. If that’s the case, then it’s absurd to ask where the universe came from, suggest god as the answer, and then not ask the same question about god.

Moniker edited this message on 09/04/2009 5:42PM

Flying Spagh-
etti Monster

Avatar: 138324 Fri Mar 13 00:32:50 -0400 2009

Level 22 Hacker

The Omnipotent Pasta

I did it obviously.

/thread

Ricket

MODERATOR
Avatar: 4300 2011-11-01 00:56:47 -0400
100

[The Scrotal Safety-
Commission
]

Level 69 Troll

Good poster, upvoted.

Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted:

I did it obviously.

/thread

Signed, upvoted.

Also, changing into my pirate gear to fight global warming.

Catt although

MODERATOR
Avatar: 46806 2013-08-07 00:24:18 -0400
100

[Brainfreeze]

Level 69 Troll

Last Catt Standing

Hobart Bliggity Posted:

truth is staring you in the face bro.

Question to all the atheists out there. Why are many of you so fervent in trying to disprove God?

A very good question, and not simply answered, I think. But I’ll attempt to have a go at it – First off, for those of us in the States, there is a culture that promotes faith in public (see Obama, Barack – election of) and that has for decades, at least, portrayed atheists in a very negative light. To attempt to gain a fair standing in society, attempts are made to promote our viewpoint as being superior, or at the very least sensible. I think most oppressed minorities will attempt to glorify their group in an effort to gain status. In addition, there is the point of view that religion when looked at as one entity has had a very destructive effect on society (yes, there is also a viewpoint that it has been beneficial, I’m not arguing that here). And of course, most people like to be smug bastards whenever possible.

tl; dr – In theory if religious people would keep their religion private then atheists would not act this way, while in truth many probably would anyway.

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