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	Domination Enhancements Thread spacekadt Posted: There’s a slim chance in hell that solving the alt problem will solve some of the raid problems as well. This is my thinking too.. anyways, updated OP with all the proposed changes. I’m going to think about these in depth and figure out what to push forward at next weeks meeting so in the mean time, convince me which are the best changes! Log in to see images! Keep in mind, I hope to push all of these.. it’s just a matter of figuring out which one’s to push first. (view post)	12/04/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread So. As someone had mentioned earlier, it is unlikely that we’d be able to do both the Raid changes as well as the Alt changes at the same time. As such I’d consider pushing one initiative ahead of the others.. and here are the options as I see them: – Raid changes: Limit X characters per raid; each character can only join 1 raid per day; if you’re not in the raid, you can’t affect the count positively; can only join the raid in the first x minutes; (again, don’t worry about the 37 scoops.. as I mentioned, we build the infrastructure, then adjust the balance to make it work) – Alt changes: Allow only X characters to participate in dom each week; it would likely auto-select the first 5 characters to earn scoops that week; outstanding characters can’t be marked as pwning forums; no alts in the same bracket – Dom changes: # medals available in a bracket are relative to scoops produced in that bracket; no alts in the same bracket Pick one and I’ll push it forward.. I’d been pushing the Raid changes cause they are easier to implement. But if there’s a larger problem around alts, let’s discuss and push that instead. Thoughts? Also, updated OP. (view post)	12/04/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread So… instead of doing all the proposed changes, we should just not allow alts to play Dom? Or limit the number of alts? (view post)	12/03/2008
	ET refuses blowjobs! Wylin Posted: How the heck do you have stuff like that in your head, just ready for times like this? Do I really have to answer that question? The internet is a fantastic and wondrous place! Log in to see images! (view post)	12/02/2008
	ET refuses blowjobs! Physics Posted: 010000100110010100100000011100110111010101110010011001 010010000001110100011011110010000001100100011100100110 100101101110011010110010000001111001011011110111010101 110010001000000100111101110110011000010110110001110100 01101001011011100110010100101110 01001001001001110110110001101100001000000111001101101000011011110110111101110100 00100000010110010100111101010101010100100010000001100101011110010110010100100000 011011110111010101110100 (view post)	12/02/2008
	ET refuses blowjobs! raepp d0g11 Posted: Caer 4 an sxithsome? YES! (view post)	12/02/2008
	ET refuses blowjobs! Raepdog Posted: Eh Sure. ok I’m fairly new to this.. open wide and tell me how badly you want it.. Log in to see images! (view post)	12/02/2008
	ET refuses blowjobs! So even though I may DESERVE one, he’s not giving. Anyone else want a shot…? ...in the face? (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: What I was saying is that even without an additional scoop reward for interruption, if you are free to use any of your alts to interrupt raids but the potential reward from raid scoops are significantly limited, that already makes soloing on some alts and interrupting on others a much better strategy than raiding. Then if you essentially put a bounty on raiding by offering a reward, I’m just not sure who would want to raid. Yeah raid interruption is good in theory, but may not work in practice. I never promised raid interruption benefits Log in to see images! (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread spacekadt Posted: You get half of the reward though, not the full reward. If your strategy is to be that jackbum who only interrupts, you’re SERIOUSLY limiting your potential. And if we have the limit in place on how many alts participate in dom to begin with, it’s not a particularly good strategy. That said, I wouldn’t mind seeing it set so that with the limit on alts that participate, the other alts somehow don’t get counted when they pwn forums for interruption. You should still be able to pursue the peens for streaks and everything else, but you a) wouldn’t be able to help -or- interrupt raids and b) don’t get the scoop reward that goes with the peens. Kinda half-cheater style. Yeah I’m ok with this too. Which is why an alt limit is also mentioned in the OP. Also, we can look into raid interruption later after we fix what’s not working with today’s configuration. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread meeeeeeeeee Posted: Players have already proven this can and will be done (me included, though I just don’t want to dedicate the amount of effort required for longer than a very short period) If that’s where the edge lies after the proposed changes, that’s what will happen – the ability to play yourself, and lock down your opponents and all their alts, up to the limit of how much time and cash you want to dedicate to the job. In other words, we again have the same problem, just a different focus, again. For that reason there still needs to be a flat limit on the number of visits a single player can deploy per week in domination, amongst all their alts, on whatever they choose – neutering another player has to have a cost to yourself. I think it would even be possible to have some kind of scoop reward for interruption as a form of compensation (half the scoops you prevent being earned?) but that would still have to come with a flat limit on the number of visits you deploy. Yes we could certainly look into a reward for raid interruption. But we have to careful or users could just form two raids with their alts and interrupt themselves. Half the scoops is an ok reward.. Something like every 2 forums you pwn back from a raid you get 1 scoop for.. Sure, I’d consider that. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: If you had 10 users, you probably could work out pistachio, or at least do better with it. But in my experience, 10 different users is a huge raiding group. I can’t remember the last time I was in a raid with that many people. The only way truly small groups can compete is by using alts and being willing to sacrifice pistachio for speed in the case of interference. You just can’t take the time to work out or double check your list of forums you can take and wait for one that is convenient for your pistachio loop. It’s kind of tough to be individually greedy and work towards the needs of the group, at least when you’re talking about small raids. Yeah perhaps.. so take pistachio out of the equation and make raid vanilla worth 2 scoops each. Or something.. Again, once the mechanic is built we can tweak the balance, just like the rest of forumwarz. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: You can manage pistachio on one or two alts, but more than that and it is really too confusing and unhelpful to the group if there is only a particular proportion of the forums you are able to take. Especially when people interfere and take down two, three, and four forums at a time, you need to be as fast and flexible as possible with your visits, or else you will just never get back to holding 11 or 12. So sure, you can do it sometimes, but in practice, it really requires the sacrifice of pistachio in order to be able to maintain a raid. If you have a ton of people, maybe this isn’t the case, but it’s the way it works in a small group. With a smaller raid groups though it should be easier to get 10 (or less if you include alts) users to work together on a raid, and maintain your pistachio scoops. I do think that more raid, more often, that are less time consuming would be better for all involved. Then we could even do “raid” weeks for a domination theme, where the raid limited is higher.. or lifted.. or klan vanilla yields 2 scoops instead of 1.. once the game is more balanced we should be able to experiment a little bit more and encourage raiding! More raiding klans is a good thing in my books. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread Adeptus Posted: Note that last time I raided was during the mbumive interference period by a large group of co-ordinated players a while ago. It might be much more feasible now. I covertly raided with a klan recently and was able to get plenty of pistachios. Depending on your klans strategy you can easily work in pistachio. Lemon is a bit harder and risks loss of vanilla. I figured you might be able to get 6 lemon out of your 12 visits.. that might be generous. Even then, we’re only talking about 6 scoops. Back in the day I used to be able to get 36 lemons, 9 vanilla and about 20 pistachio for a standard solo run.. whereas with raiding I could have gotten 300+ vanilla.. Good ol’ SotQR Log in to see images! Anyways, point is, these changes would help bridge the gap with vanilla and allow us to balance things accordingly, instead of just giving more scoops for solo raidings, which is what we did in the short term to address the gap. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: No, I’m not saying that choco earners will dominate the game — it’s just that with a small difference between klan and solo vanilla totals, and given that the difference will be then rather easily overcome with other scoop gaining methods, I’m not convinced that the effort, time, and risk of doing a klan raid will be worth it for those in the top brackets. I think it will be better to have several alts in a bracket with slightly lower scoop totals than one character who participates in klan raids. Once you are able to have alts in your bracket, it will be much easier to keep those alts medaled, especially with the availability of ties. It will still be all about who has the most alts, but the visits will just be used differently. If klan vanilla is nerfed without nerfing bracket stuffing, that doesn’t really do anything to change the issue of using alts to win; it just moves the problem around. I think it would be great to see more klan raiding, but I don’t really see how klan raiders will be able to compete with those who solo with many alts. Ok well see my example above.. as I mentioned once the infrastructure is set up, we can make balance adjustments as needed. That being said I see your point about alts. And to that effect alts won’t be able to get that many medals if we implement the other rule in the OP: – Medals: The number of goals available be relative to the TOTAL number of scoops earned by all characters in a bracket. That way, the more active a bracket, the more medals there are to go around. And you can’t drop down to inactive brackets to get tons of easy medals. 0-50 (Most Scoops), 51-100 (Most Scoops, Highest Min Scoops), 101-150 (Most Scoops, Highest Min Scoops, Fibonacci), 151-200 (Most Scoops, Highest Min Scoops, Fibonacci Sequence, Most Scoops Destroyed), etc, etc.. Let’s say we do the above.. and we define the golden rule: “You no alts/mains can be in the same group” this could solve the problem and stop alts from dropping down to inactive brackets and getting 4 medals! Or we could just get rid of ties again. I would consider ties a temporary fix while we adjust vanilla anyways. Alts are definitely an issue, which is why I’m also considering limiting the number of alts that can participate in Domination. I don’t think that’s the best solution. But I don’t think that forcing alts into different brackets is either, cause you’ll get forced into inactive brackets where you can get every medal available! Again, suggestions are welcome.. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread Adeptus Posted: I may be in a raiding klan, but due to timezone differences and a stupid workload I’m primarily a solo player, and I make many, many more scoops total over all my alts with lemon, pistachio and solo vanilla than I would with a main character with lemon, pistachio and klan vanilla (and solo vanilla if I save my mains visits which is pretty standard), even if this change meant my alts made some klan vanilla too. This is because if you’re raiding, because of the dynamics of preparation and protecting against interference it’s usually difficult to work out pistachio runs on alt characters and fairly tough to get any lemon. Err… that’s a terrible explaination. Lets go with some numbers, see if that makes it clearer Option A: Solo For an ideal solo vanilla run of 12 visits, you can get 72 vanilla, 36 lemon and a varying amount of pistachio. Let’s say about 50 ish if you’re roughly in the middle of a run. That’s 158 scoops. 10 (really very good) solo characters working as a team make 1580. Option B: Raid If there’s only 1 main not using his visits for solo purposes, with the rest made up of alts of other klannies helping out, they can make 96 klan vanilla, plus the solo player makes 158, giving a grand total of 1118 scoops from a team of 10. The klan player will have 96 more scoops than his individual competitors, but the solo team makes 462 more scoops overall, and if more than a couple are in the same bracket as the klan player they will anhiliate him/her. Even if the raid characters make some lemon and pistachio scoops (they might get 15 total, each) that’s still a pretty steep hill to climb. There’s a lot more to this, I know, especially if you get characters and klans with enough alts (and time!) to raid everyday and keep adding the same main into each raid, but that’s beyond my ability sort out. If anything, this is gonna make raids longer as you just have one main, 9 other player’s alts, raid to the limit, start a new raid with someone elses main, raid to the limit etc. etc. That’s really ****ing tedious and I doubt I’d be willing to participate. How about we nerf solo vanilla back to 1 scoop like it used to be.. and we allow alts back into raids.. I still stand by the fact that raiding should be better than solo, but it shouldn’t keep solo players from playing. So some math… Situation A – solo vanilla run 12 visits. Let’s bumume I get 2 lemon for each.. and sure, we’ll use your number 50 pistachio. If solo vanilla is nerfed back to 1 scoop I would get 9 vanilla scoops. 24 lemon. So total of 83 scoops. Mostly pistachio. Situation B – klan raid 120 visits. Fair to bumume no lemon, but let’s say you’ll get 6 out of your 12 visits, because. We can use the same number for pistachio, cause it’s likely you can do both, so 50 pistachio. If you can get 109 vanilla, that’s 165 scoops. So you’d get double for doing a raid. That looks pretty good on paper to me. We want to adjust it? Make solo vanilla worth 2 instead of 1.. or 3 instead of 1… Again, I’m just saying there are options when it comes to vanilla. Maybe I’m missing something here.. am I? (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread spacekadt Posted: No… definitely no leeches allowed. We were just talking about that in IRC. Log in to see images! I like the idea of only joining in the first 5 minutes, too. I’ve seen talk about doing exactly that kind of cycling so that the raid can gather more than the intended 109 scoops. Screw that! No more gaming the system! Log in to see images! The rules are there for a reason.. to give raiders enough of an advantage to merit raiding, but to not give them guaranteed medals, which is essentially the case today. So once these are in place we can look to balance the limit, or the solo vanilla yield.. but at least with this approach Domination should be a lot more competitive and encourage smaller and more raids.. and hopefully get more solo players to raid, because it’s quick, easy and yields more scoops. When I say “quick” and “easy” I mean, quick and easy compared to today.. which is all about how many alts you have an how much time you’re willing to devote. I don’t think that’s the way it should be. This should be a game about strategy and cooperation. IMO. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread spacekadt Posted: The only request I have with all of this (because I like your proposed changes, personally) is that if we are limited to one raid per day on a char, that it’s seriously considered how long it takes to run through visits. With a 10 person cap, you can almost definitely finish all 120 visits in two hours. Increasing the cap (which isn’t a bad thing) will most likely require longer raids to use all the visits, though. At least if people are waiting for natural turnover – this should speed up considerably if there are enough alts that people don’t care about that they can use for pushing. Anyway, if the cap gets raised, can we have raids that are manually ended when the visits are over? Or some obscene amount of time for the raid? I don’t see any benefit to keeping the raid alive when the visits are gone – it shouldn’t be ripe for abuse if we have a manual end. We could also just nerf solo vanilla (like I suggested in my previous post). Also I’m considering putting a limit on when you can join a raid (ex: you can only join in the first 5 minutes). That way you couldn’t cycle characters into and out of a raid. With all these changes I don’t really see a need for a raid time limit cap.. we might just get rid of it. The cap was put in place so that one character couldn’t join and sit for hours while other members push forums. With a limit in space you wouldn’t want leeches in your raids anyways.. I would bumume Log in to see images! (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: Yes, solo vanilla can be and is interfered with, but it’s much more difficult to watch for many people doing solos quickly at different times and interrupt them than it is to catch a raid that lasts for several hours. It’s hard not to notice a klan raid, but you have to pretty much stalk somebody if you want to interrupt their solo vanilla. Agreed. However, with these changes raids will be restricted to 120 visits (lets call it that for argument sake). Therefore they won’t last for hours. Many users can run multiple smaller (and faster raids). This should make raiding as a whole more common then solo raiding. And with only requiring 10 characters instead of however many contribute now, it would be easier to coordinate. Perhaps we could adjust the yield of solo vanilla to 7 or 6 per dom (so 63 or 54 scoops instead of 72). The point is, smaller raids, which are easier to coordinate and execute should result in more raids, more competition, and more strategy overall, because you wouldn’t have a windfall of scoops, you’d have an edge over solo players. An edge. I don’t want domination to be about who has more alts and who can spend more time raiding. I want it to be about strategy and to encourage cooperation. plk Posted: The other methods of gaining scoops I only brought up in order to demonstrate why it wouldn’t really be effective to raid with such a small advantage coming from vanilla. If you can make up the difference with other methods and gain the advantage of stuffing brackets with your alts, that is a better strategic choice than raiding. Agreed, but this is, and always has been true.. but if you look at the top choco earners, they aren’t the one’s dominating the game.. the vanilla raiders are. If we nerf vanilla scoops and choco (or other scoop earners) become the kings, we’ll make adjustments to keep them in check. Again, other suggestions/alternatives are welcome. That’s why I post these types of changes publicly. (view post)	12/02/2008
	Domination Enhancements Thread plk Posted: 37 scoops is a very small advantage, and that’s only achieved if you have a perfect raid (which is impossible, as klan raids take considerably longer than solo, and there is always interference, even if it is unintentional). Honestly, a better use of visits then would be to do what many who are critical of klan vanilla already do: to gain solo vanilla on many alts separately and then fill the brackets with several of your alts and your klannies’ alts and use one or two of your own alts for destruction while another is set up to win. The allowed ties and additional medals will make that tactic even more effective as solo players will keep arriving in the top brackets with several alts, while those who have used their visits in klan raids will generally have one character per bracket in the top brackets. In that case, it would be better to sacrifice those potential 37 klan vanilla scoops for one character and focus on keeping alts evenly medaled. 37 scoops can be easily compensated for with chocolate from forumbuildr or even pistachio, since the loops are much longer now. Solo vanilla can also be interfered with and is much more costly (you’d lose 8 scoops with every interference, you only lose 1 with klan raiding). Also, maybe raid limit of 10 isn’t the right number, maybe it’s 15.. once the logic is built, we can tweak the balance. There is always the option to get scoops through other methods, and there’s nothing stopping anyone from doing that now, so I would consider that a different discussion. At this point it’s fair to say that raiding vanilla has too much of an advantage over solo vanilla. That is the problem I am trying to address. If you have other suggestions speak now. These changes are in the pipe and will get implemented in due time. Alts in the same bracket is another issue which perhaps requires more thought, however with more people playing, and with a more competitive chance for solo players, chances are alts won’t have the medals to end up in the same bracket as the main. And if they do, then they’d likely have to keep getting medals to stay in the top group anyways. (view post)	12/02/2008

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