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Bug - 2 I may have figured out what's wrong with the itembuildr code

MC Banhammer

Avatar: 1887 2011-07-31 00:40:59 -0400
36

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Troll

Trying to create drama to drum up the ratings by any means necessary!

It’s based on average, right? So every item it produces is going to be near the middle. Making the next thing more likely to be near the middle, and so on. That’s why the tattoos all have almost the same stats, and why this lingerie is almost identical to the schoolgirl panties.

I don’t expect ET to respond to this thread in the near term (as he seems to be focusing on the gameplay improvements rather than fixing itembuildr), so maybe we can all brainstorm and figure out how the algorithm SHOULD work, rather than complaining that it doesn’t.

AJ_Impy

Avatar: Hacker Man w/ Goggles
1

Level 34 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

Astute thinking. Maybe something that compares the output to existing items, and rejects those that are within X points of something already available?

-MLF-

Avatar: 83146 Sun Jan 18 18:56:12 -0500 2009
6

Level 60 Hacker

“Cracking Addict”

Here’s a formula we could use.


Base Stat

20% that it gives PP -> Hardware

20% that it gives Sexiness -> Lingerie/Glbumes/Shoes (33.3% chance each)

20% that it gives Douchebaggery -> Fetishes

20% that it gives Tears -> Piercing/Tattoo (50% chance each)

20% that it only gives Ego


Ego

45% on all items that it gives Ego additionally.

It will give Ego based on the formula below. If it only gives Ego, it will go through the formula twice.


This formula will be done once per “PP/Sexiness/Douchebaggery/Tears/Ego”, “Offense”, “Defense”, and “Other stats (Luck, Charisma, et cetera)”.

Ex1) Offense

[(Lowest Offense) + (Highest Offense)]/(Random Variable between 1 and itself/(Lowest Offense)]

*Always round up.

**This is done per item type. So in the case of a lingerie item,

[(the lowest Offense of a lingerie item) + (the highest Offense of a lingerie item)]/[(Random Variable between 1 and itself)/(the lowest Offense of a lingerie item)].


Ex2) Defense

[(Lowest Defense) + (Highest Defense)]/(Random Variable between 1 and itself/(Lowest Defense)]

*Always round up.

**This is done per item type. So in the case of a lingerie item,

[(the lowest Defense of a lingerie item) + (the highest Defense of a lingerie item)]/[(Random Variable between 1 and itself)/(the lowest Defense of a lingerie item)].


Example

PP -> Hacker

It does not give Ego additionally.

PP: [(5) + (100)]/(Random Variable between 1 and 105/5) = Anywhere between 5 and 105 PP.

Offense: [(2) + (15)]/(Random Variable between 1 and 17/2) = Anywhere between 2 and 17 Offense.

Defense: [(1) + (15)]/(Random Variable between 1 and 16/1) = Anywhere between 1 and 16 Defense.

Luck: [(1) + (10)]/(Random Variable between 1 and 11/1) = Anywhere between 1 and 11.

-MLF- edited this message on 05/19/2009 4:26PM

zagerblag

Avatar: 102042 Wed Jun 03 22:55:29 -0400 2009
16

[Board of Directors]

Level 35 Hacker

asdf

MeatLoafFan Posted:

Here’s a formula we could use.

[formula]

Good job. Price would be proportional to stats, right? I think the very idea of automatically-generated, random stats for purchasable equipment is bad, though. Maybe itembuildr could feed a more robust item drop system.

zagerblag edited this message on 05/19/2009 7:32PM

-MLF-

Avatar: 83146 Sun Jan 18 18:56:12 -0500 2009
6

Level 60 Hacker

“Cracking Addict”

zagerblag Posted:

Good job. Price would be proportional to stats, right?

That’s the difficult part. The aim of itembuildr is automatically generated stats and prices, but the thing is, all stats are worth different things.

An item that gives 400 douchebaggery would cost less than an item that gives 200 Processing power.

Same thing with luck, charisma, et cetera.

An ideal formula would involve each stat point being worth a certain number of flezz, but something like:

Offense = 1,000

Defense = 1,000

Douchebaggery, Tears, Sexiness = 100

PP = 200

Those are just numbers out of my head though.

zagerblag Posted:

I think the very idea of automatically-generated, random stats for purchasable equipment is bad, though.

Why? Using my method, no item will never be better or worse than the current most powerful/weakest.

In addition, it would be random, unlike the current code.

Though stats could still be blown out of proportion, which shows that the above formula needs a lot more tweaking, to avoid an item that gives hardware with 5PP, 2 offense, 1 defense and 1 luck.

silversparrow

Avatar: Pink Dress
7

Level 57 Camwhore

“Justine Berry”

MeatLoafFan Posted:

Why? Using my method, no item will never be better or worse than the current most powerful/weakest.

Which is what many of us are annoyed with in the first place.

I could care less whether we have a billion items that are worse than any given item I’m using, or only one; I’m not a collector, it makes no difference to me. And that’s the crux of the matter: under your system, itembuildr will at some point become useless to every player in the game. Power creep is power creep, sure, but it’d be nice if I actually had a reason to care how the vote turned out each week.

silversparrow edited this message on 05/20/2009 5:51AM

Sarcasm Inc

Avatar: 124937 2010-01-24 16:34:47 -0500
22

[pizza party]

Level 69 Hacker

Not needed anymore now that we have the SarcMark

silversparrow Posted:

Which is what many of us are annoyed with in the first place.

I could care less whether we have a billion items that are worse than any given item I’m using, or only one; I’m not a collector, it makes no difference to me. And that’s the crux of the matter: under your system, itembuildr will at some point become useless to every player in the game. Power creep is power creep, sure, but it’d be nice if I actually had a reason to care how the vote turned out each week.

Yes. This is the crux of the matter. I’ve only been here 2 or 3 months, and I’ve got all the top level equipment; all I need to do is grind for the best moars (which is going to take forever with only a simple spider).

At this stage, I’m all for 2 itemBuildrs; one generating a medium or low level item, the other generating high level stuff. ARun the medium/low as per normal, but at least for the first little while, have the type of high level stuff determined by Evil Trout, based on suggestions from the community. The statistics I’ll leave to my more mathematically inclined comrades.

Sergeant Cid

MODERATOR
Avatar: 167814 2011-07-31 00:46:27 -0400

[The Airship]

Level 35 Re-Re

Scientifically Proven Terrible fabulous person..... Evidence shows mbumive build up of semen deposit in bum.

I would prefer to see an actual Build phase that precedes the Description Phase.

During this phase, we actually submit ‘designs’, based upon building points.

There are 4 ‘Energy’ Statistics: Processing Power, Sexiness, Tears & Douchebaggery

There is 1 ‘Health’ Statistic: Ego

There are 5 Attributes: Offense, Defense, Luck, Frugality, Charisma

All items in the game affect one or more of the Attributes or Statistics.

Each new item gets between 1 and 1000 Building Points.

To increase an ‘Energy’ Statistic by +25 costs 1 Building point. For each additional +25 , it costs 1 more Building point than the last level. In other words, the second level costs 2 Building Points, the third level costs 3, and so on. So, to add +200 Tears to an item costs 10 Building Points.

The same applies to Attributes. One Building Point for the first +1, two Building Points for the second +2, and so on.

Ego would increase at a rate of +10, but would be otherwise identical to the Energy Statistic build.

Each type of item would have an upper limit on each Statistic or Attribute, to keep them in line with the existing items. To design an item, the first step is to select an item type (Special Items are excluded from this step, and would have to be manually activate when ET decides it’s time to let one into the system).

For example, if you choose to design a Troll Fetish, then you would have the following Maximum Values for each Attribute/Statistic:

Douchebaggery Max +700, Ego Max +100, Offense Max +15, Defense Max +40, Luck Max +7, Frugality Max +7, Charisma Max +7.

Even with 1000 points, you couldn’t max out all of these values. So, you have to actually design the item.

If we have 500 points to build our new item, we can design a few different possible Fetishes.

Design A: Douchebaggery +400, Ego +40, Offense +15, Defense +21, Luck +2


Design B: Douchebaggery +200, Ego +100, Offense +10, Defense +23, Luck +7, Frugality +7, Charisma +7

To control the overall power level of an item entering the game, all ET has to do in this situation is determine the number of building points to allow for each item. To keep the right balance, it’s simply a matter of weighting each Attribute or Statistic properly. Maybe Frugality needs to have a base cost of 2 Building Points instead of 1. Or maybe Charisma costs more for Fetishes than it does for Lingerie.

The point here really is that being able to actually design an item instead of relying upon a random program is sure to produce more innovative ideas & items. And to me, that’s the whole point of ItemBuildr.

silversparrow

Avatar: Pink Dress
7

Level 57 Camwhore

“Justine Berry”

Also a terrible idea. How long do you think it’ll be before each clbum has an item maxed out in one or even two stats in each category? Even if ET sets the caps low, we’ll get three items tops — Off/Def maxed, Cha/luck maxed, and Frugality maxed — and we’re back to not caring about itembuildr.

Additionally, ET would be figuring out a new cap every other day. It’s not like he has nothing to do, folks.

guest42

Avatar: Piggy Bank
18

[Bargain Drug Wareh-
ouse
]

Level 69 Permanoob

“Permanoob”

That depends on the caps and and building points.

We can already see how itembuildr is generating items at the high end and the low end. Even with this new system, the same could be done by letting people design items with a varying number of builder points (and possibly varying caps). By varying the number of points to force the creation of items for use through the entire level scale, it will take that much longer for us to fill all desired niches.

Will we eventually have created every combination of stats that we really want with some time? Sure. But, we’ll do that regardless of how it’s done. Is it better to have a run of items people want created or is it better to have a huge pile of items people are completely disinterested in because they are more expensive with smaller bonuses than items tht already exist and an occasional good item?

Sarcasm Inc

Avatar: 124937 2010-01-24 16:34:47 -0500
22

[pizza party]

Level 69 Hacker

Not needed anymore now that we have the SarcMark

I like the idea of a random number of points per week.

Invariel

Avatar: 14446 Thu Oct 23 18:38:00 -0400 2008
18

[Brainfreeze]

Level 36 Camwhore

I Wrote a Script and You Liked It

As much as I hate point-buy systems, this could work incredibly well, given a decent interface for designing items. Furthermore, with the amount of build points being generated every run, you could be forced to make a low-end item or a high-end item, which would be good for players across the board.

Samildanach

Avatar: 143751 Tue May 19 21:18:21 -0400 2009
11

Level 34 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

Sergeant Cid Posted:

The point here really is that being able to actually design an item instead of relying upon a random program is sure to produce more innovative ideas & items. And to me, that’s the whole point of ItemBuildr.

The problem, however, is that any build of an item that doesn’t completely max a stat is going to get downvoted by a majority of the population as “useless”. As mentioned, the winners will inevitably be the ones that spend all the points possible to maximize Offense (and perhaps defense) or Charisma (and perhaps luck) or Frugality. Odds are low that we’d end up with any items the community liked better.

guest42

Avatar: Piggy Bank
18

[Bargain Drug Wareh-
ouse
]

Level 69 Permanoob

“Permanoob”

Samildanach Posted:

The problem, however, is that any build of an item that doesn’t completely max a stat is going to get downvoted by a majority of the population as “useless”. As mentioned, the winners will inevitably be the ones that spend all the points possible to maximize Offense (and perhaps defense) or Charisma (and perhaps luck) or Frugality. Odds are low that we’d end up with any items the community liked better.

Why is this a problem? If all of the items were items that the community liked, then the items coming out of itembuildr would all be items that people wanted, as opposed to items that are designed to no apparent purpose and cost more than the simpler items with higher stat modifiers.

markchd

Avatar: 12369 2010-01-24 16:26:11 -0500
18

[Brainfreeze]

Level 69 Camwhore

Craves Power like it's Crystal Pepsi

What does the current algorithm actually look like? It’s not as though we could exploit it, and ET has historically shared code.

Samildanach

Avatar: 143751 Tue May 19 21:18:21 -0400 2009
11

Level 34 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

guest42 Posted:

Why is this a problem? If all of the items were items that the community liked, then the items coming out of itembuildr would all be items that people wanted, as opposed to items that are designed to no apparent purpose and cost more than the simpler items with higher stat modifiers.

Because, knowing this, if the amount of points available exceeded or even were equal to existing equipment, it would lead to item inflation. If the points weren’t enough to exceed existing equipment when you just dumped them all in one stat, then people would **** as much about having “useless items” as they already do, except with an extra step in the chain.

In other words, either it leads to escalating EQ values, or the same complaints as we currently get.

MINION9000

Avatar: 118643 Tue Feb 17 04:27:14 -0500 2009
7

[pizza party]

Level 35 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

Just take the current formula and add a random factor that either adds up to either +/- 20% in each stat from the original forum, you’ll still get random items without completely breaking the game.

Samildanach

Avatar: 143751 Tue May 19 21:18:21 -0400 2009
11

Level 34 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

MINION9000 Posted:

Just take the current formula and add a random factor that either adds up to either +/- 20% in each stat from the original forum, you’ll still get random items without completely breaking the game.

... until you have the random item chosen from one of the +20% items, creating a 44% stronger item, which will in turn be the basis for a 72% stronger item that can then make a 107% stronger item than we had at the beginning.

silversparrow

Avatar: Pink Dress
7

Level 57 Camwhore

“Justine Berry”

Which is actually in the formula at present at 5%; we just haven’t gotten to its equivalent of 105% yet.

Do one of the things that will cause the inflation, but put a cap slightly above our current best item (That won’t change)

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