Porco Rosso Posted:

Also, maybe I’m misunderstanding the revised changes, but are you removing the raid limit of 13 without allowing alts to join raids? I’m not sure what the point of that is since I can’t imagine that more than one or two klans will be able to raid with that many different people anyway. For everybody else, soloing is going to be a much better deal.

This. Even the one or two klans that might occasionally get that many don’t get that many on a regular basis by a long shot.

Without allowing alts to help the actual raids, soloing is going to be a better deal 90% of the time.

Porco Rosso Posted:

Er, if you’re going to do hard limits for a certain number of days, could we get some kind of scoops earned counter somewhere (split by flavor) so that we can know how many we’ve earned in order to plan things out better? The dom group doesn’t really work so well for that since scoops are constantly being destroyed and used to buy cards. Because keeping track of that so that you don’t needlessly burn visits with no (vanilla) benefit seems like a huge pain to me. I don’t know though; maybe that’s supposed to be part of the challenge? Log in to see images!

Also, maybe I’m misunderstanding the revised changes, but are you removing the raid limit of 13 without allowing alts to join raids? I’m not sure what the point of that is since I can’t imagine that more than one or two klans will be able to raid with that many different people anyway. For everybody else, soloing is going to be a much better deal.

The key to balancing Domination is coming up with a solution that is simple, that stops the exploits that plague Domination and that is easy to code. Adding counters and such sounds like a bad solution. But the fact that you’d need counters is even worse. Thus why I’m thinking a cap is bad. I’m mostly playing devils advocate, at this point I don’t know what the right answer is, I just don’t think that what scully suggested was the only and best solution.

How about..

– Raid admins have 13 invites per raid to give out

– You can only accept 2 raid invites per week

– Alts are allowed into raids and gain scoops just like anyone else

– Solo vanilla inside a raid is 8 (instead of 1)

So.. this allows small klans to make a raid, it allows alts to play and get scoops, anyone can join any time during a raid, but only 13 members can partake in a raid. Note that leeches could still be invited into a raid, but with the 8 solo vanilla inside a raid they’d be encouraged to not leech..?

I’m sure there are issues with this that I’m not considering.

Okay, but do you think you really need to bother with coding invites? Can the raid just be closed to everybody else after 13 characters join? If you try to join a raid for the third time in a week, you could just get an error like “This character has already participated in two raids this week,” right?

I guess having invites gives a greater measure of control, but that seems like something extra you could add on later if you really wanted to.

BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:

How about..

– Raid admins have 13 invites per raid to give out

– You can only accept 2 raid invites per week

– Alts are allowed into raids and gain scoops just like anyone else

– Solo vanilla inside a raid is 8 (instead of 1)

So.. this allows small klans to make a raid, it allows alts to play and get scoops, anyone can join any time during a raid, but only 13 members can partake in a raid. Note that leeches could still be invited into a raid, but with the 8 solo vanilla inside a raid they’d be encouraged to not leech..?

I’m sure there are issues with this that I’m not considering.

I think we might just be getting somewhere now.

You can only accept 2 raid invites per week

If I’m reading this right, every alt on your account can raid twice, right? Not just two raids per account?

The only possible exploit I see so far is avoided by making sure that any raid admin can only start 2 raids per week – bumuming they don’t accept any invites. Keep the limit off of *invites* directly and put it on participation in the raids.

BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:

Hmm.. so just it fills to 13.. that’s it. If you join with the wrong alt, tough. If you leave, or are booted, tough.

I’m good with this thought, too. I imagine some klans are going to have some issues in the first weeks with people trying to leech and get booted. If that happens, will someone else be able to replace them? (Not at all a huge deal if not, just a curiosity.)

Ok after much consideration and discussion this is what I’m thinking:

– Show how many forums a raid pwns (we would probably do this by allowing you to name your raid group, then displaying the name on the Klan Domination page)

– Each character can only join 2 raids per domination week

– Allow officers to create raids (without joining them)

– Allow alts into raids

– Remove the time limit for joining

– Allow 13 people into the raid, you can leave the raid ONLY if you haven’t gotten a scoop or pwned any forums

– Change solo vanilla while in a raid from 1 to 8 scoops

I’ve also updated the Enhancements thread to reflect this.

spacekadt Posted:

and allowing alts into raids?

Sure, without restriction.

I’m still not CONVINCED. This is just proposed. Log in to see images!

I still think that leeches will leech.

BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:

I still think that leeches will leech.

Then you have to give everyone else a reason to care or eliminate any benefit for doing so.

In the upper bracket(s), there are only three medals to win, two of which are fairly closely tied together (Max scoops and Fave Flav). We’ve established that klans would rather rotate who wins than fight amongst themselves for them.

If there’s five klan members in the top bracket, and the klan has decided three of them will win, why *shouldn’t* the other two let those three leech? What benefit is there to them, who have already decided to lose, to stop someone from leeching?

In the lower brackets, you need far fewer scoops to be a contender (since the real contenders dominate for the first few weeks, until they’re in the top). Why shouldn’t eight other klan members in lower brackets just let them leech? What benefit is there to them, who don’t need the relatively small number of scoops the leecher isn’t giving, to stop them from doing so?

Domination is set up so that a klan has to choose who is contending in each bracket, once a certain number of alts are present. Why wouldn’t that klan then do all they can to make those selected contenders win, regardless of how many actual players are playing?

Allowing full solo vanilla in a raid eliminates most of the reason to leech (as there the only benefit is reduced interference), but it also means that a raid is purely extra scoops and a detriment to any player who isn’t in a klan that is capable of raiding.

But, given the added difficulty inherent in staging a klan raid, it will always be purely better than not raiding. I would say that the best way to manage that would be to allow a person to use all of their own alts to raid, so that a solo player can at least get some of the benefit themselves, which would be allowing alts to join the raid and gain scoops.

Fortunato Posted:

Second, at the same time, before your week has started and before you’ve begun earning scoops at the beginning of a dom week, you could have each character select whether they wanted solo vanilla or klan vanilla; exactly the same kind of selection as for whether the char is playing or not. Just like enabled or disabled, solo vanilla or klan vanilla.

I think what you’ll end up with then is pretty much all solo players. I’m sure there are a number of people who might be able to do one raid a week, but wouldn’t want to commit to two. So then they’re screwed out of solo vanilla for the rest of the week, regardless of whether they could even be at the second raid? Unless you know for sure a whole week ahead of time that you can and will be there and that your klanmates also can and will be there, how could you justify signing up for raid scoops only?

Also, that would pretty much remove all spontaneity to playing; everything would have to be planned out a week in advance. Anybody who isn’t a daily player would likely set themselves to solo scoops, so they wouldn’t ever get the chance to jump in and help at all. And then, you’d probably need a spreadsheet to keep track of whose alts are set to what at the beginning of the week, and of those, who can be joined to which of the two raids given the 13 character limit for each. That’s way too much management on the front end and I know I’d much rather just solo than do all of that.