I’ll i am saying is that people can govern themselves better than big government. It’s tiring to see my generation abandon democracy in favor of socialism because some minority wants money from the government and/or feels like they aren’t accepted and loved and celebrated by everyone. Besides if the proposition is illegal the court system will overturn it anyway.

Generic Racist Posted:

I’ll i am saying is that people can govern themselves better than big government.

Except this isn’t about big government. It’s about human dignity, and whether two people who love each other should be able to build a life together without suffering prejudice and scorn. It’s about whether couples that could get married in one location can also get married if they move to another place in the same country.

It took federal action to end slavery and segregation. It sometimes takes big government to tell the people “Hey, you can’t do that to the minority. Our country was founded to protect what was, at the time, a minority – Americans.”

I’m gonna steal a quote from my iconsake for the purpose of illustrating how plebiscites work, and why they suck. Feel free to replace “voting” with “Prop 8” for best effect:

Spider Jerusalem Posted:

You want to know about voting. I’m here to tell you about voting.

Imagine you’re locked in a huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that enjoy pit bulls for fun.

And you ain’t allowed out until all vote on what you’re going to do tonight.

YOU like to put your feet up and watch “Republican Party Reservation.”

THEY like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns, and brand-new sexual organs that you did not know existed.

So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to **** you with switchblades.

That’s voting.

You’re welcome.

Generic Racist Posted:

It’s tiring to see my generation abandon democracy in favor of socialism because some minority wants money from the government and/or feels like they aren’t accepted and loved and celebrated by everyone.

This is what privileged clbumes actually believe. This is also about the biggest facepalm in the history of facepalms. They don’t want “more money from the government”, and while they certainly want, and deserve, to be accepted by everyone since they are, y’know, human beings with the inherent dignity that should provide, everyone is well aware they can’t force people to “love” or “celebrate” them anymore than they can be forced to “celebrate” homophobic morons. Further, socialism and democracy are not incompatible. The two systems do not exist on the same spectrum, and it’s laughable to watch Republican pundits treat them as though they did.

Also, we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a representative republic, specifically because the framers of the Constitution realized that The People, while they were magnificent, were also generally dangerous and uneducated, and not necessarily able to think of what is to their best benefit – like, say, supporting equal rights for the minority, or remembering that they once were one.

Generic Racist Posted:

Besides if the proposition is illegal the court system will overturn it anyway.

Sadly, in Cali, it’s not “illegal”. The people can amend their constitution through a plebiscite, legally. It’s reprehensible, and an annoying step backward that can’t be corrected till 2010 and probably won’t be corrected for another couple years, it turns gay marriage in a football that will get kicked around every 2 years for a good long while. But it’s not illegal.

Still, Prop 8 based with the barest majority, at a time when even the Democrats were mobilizing traditionally homophobic voters. It pbumed with less of a majority than the previous equivalent referendum in California. The number of homophobes is decreasing.

And that’s why people say gay marriage is inevitable. Not because anyone is going to “force it” on anyone, but simply because with every year that goes by, more and more people come of voting age having grown up in an increasingly reasonable world where gay people are recognized as people, and when they vote, they will vote to treat gay people like people. It is inevitable because majority support of equal rights for homosexuals is inevitable.

Samildanach Posted:

Except this isn’t about big government. It’s about human dignity, and whether two people who love each other should be able to build a life together without suffering prejudice and scorn. It’s about whether couples that could get married in one location can also get married if they move to another place in the same country.

It took federal action to end slavery and segregation. It sometimes takes big government to tell the people “Hey, you can’t do that to the minority. Our country was founded to protect what was, at the time, a minority – Americans.” Ending slavery was not a good idea by the government. Other places abolished without having to be told to. We would have eventually too. Sure it would have took longer, but it would be better in the long run because people would actually WANT it to happen instead of it being forced upon them by dangerous people like you who think they are so much smarter than everyone else and are the only ones who are right. Ending slavery created segregation out the frustration of people having no say in the matter. That’s why you never hear about segregation in places like Brittan. It has nothing to do southerners are more evil, or bigoted, or stupid than britts.

I’m gonna steal a quote from my iconsake for the purpose of illustrating how plebiscites work, and why they suck. Feel free to replace “voting” with “Prop 8” for best effect:

Also, we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a representative republic, specifically because the framers of the Constitution realized that The People, while they were magnificent, were also generally dangerous and uneducated, and not necessarily able to think of what is to their best benefit – like, say, supporting equal rights for the minority, or remembering that they once were one.

Are you kidding me? So I guess we need an anointed King to lead the the ignorant, uneducated mbum to glory. Do you seriously think that people are unable to think for themselves and govern themselves? Why don’t you move a country with a dictatorship, since you think that you and everyone else is too stupid and evil to make laws THAT THEY WANT TO LIVE BY. People don’t just take actions with no reason. Going through life thinking people are inherently evil and stupid is sad way to live

Generic Racist Posted:

Are you kidding me? So I guess we need an anointed King to lead the the ignorant, uneducated mbum to glory. Do you seriously think that people are unable to think for themselves and govern themselves? Why don’t you move a country with a dictatorship, since you think that you and everyone else is too stupid and evil to make laws THAT THEY WANT TO LIVE BY. People don’t just take actions with no reason. Going through life thinking people are inherently evil and stupid is sad way to live

Now I have to ask if you’re kidding me. You think it would have been better to leave human beings as ****ing property for a few more decades because some backwards ****s were making too much money off of their blood and sweat to ever let them go? You think basic human rights should wait until the privileged clbumes somehow magically evolve into a better recognition of other people’s humanity? You want to pretend that there would have been anywhere near the amount of progress we’ve made, more or less “better” progress, if people hadn’t been up and active to force the issue? You’re comfortable with people living entirely different lives based on where they were born, or to where they were abducted?

I don’t give a **** how you justify the rest of your bull**** ideology, the fact that you actually think allowing human misery to continue until the white voters were “comfortable” with the idea of treating Africans as people means that I have no reason to bother talking to you. The fact that you think the nation could have really survived with someone being acknowledged as a person ten feet over one side of an imaginary line and regarded as a piece of ****ing farm equipment ten feet the other way means that I can safely include you among the list of people I wouldn’t trust to govern themselves.

Keakealani Posted:

This is not a black and white issue. It is not a matter of either having an unfettered laissez-faire democracy or a dictatorship. The government espoused by the founding fathers is a representative republic, and believing that our country is an absolute democracy is misguided at best.

A dictatorship or monarchy is incomparable to a republic because the dictator or monarch is not elected by the people. The reason we elect our representatives is because we believe that they will use their best judgement to legislate based on the will of the people but also the betterment of the nation. Sometimes those two goals are somewhat contradictory; but in general the two can be reconciled in such a way that it most directly benefits both options. We could not have a functioning system if we abolished the representative system so fundamental for our democracy. If we had no president, who would be the commander-in-chief in a time of war? Surely we shouldn’t have to vote on every military move American troops make – not only would that be painfully slow (probably fatally slow, in fact), but the majority of Americans really have no idea what the best strategic move would be in any given situation. We clearly need people to be our leaders so that we don’t have to put everything to a vote which might end up causing catastrophe in the country.

Well said. Nothing is a black and white issue. And while I do believe in limiting government power I am aware that a pure democracy would never work in the real world.

Generic Racist Posted:

All i am saying is that people can govern themselves better than big government.