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|God doesn't exist you fools.|
Ok, I could have been a little more trolly in the title, but you gety the point.
And yes, I know there’s already a thread on this, but I feel like starting my own.
Statistically analyze prayer
The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that “God answers prayers” is an illusion created by human imagination.
How do we know that “answered prayers” are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:
It does not matter who prays.
It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god.
It does not matter what we pray about.
If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single “answered prayer” is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.
For example, this article says:
One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments.
A review of 17 past studies of ’’distant healing,” published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.
This article from March, 2006 discusses the fact that the same conclusion was reached in another study:
In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypbum surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
In this article we find an amazing quote where theologians and religious leaders declare that prayer has no actual effect:
Religious leaders will breathe a sigh of relief at the news that so-called intercessory prayer is medically ineffective. In a large and much touted scientific study, one group of patients was told that strangers would pray for them, a second group was told strangers might or might not pray for them, and a third group was not prayed for at all. The $2.4 million study found that the strangers’ prayers did not help patients’ recovery.
This is a remarkable example of “positive spin” — religious leaders are “breathing a sigh of relief” because prayer has been shown to be meaningless. The fact that prayer is a total waste of time does not matter to them. It does not matter that all of Jesus’ promises about prayer in the Bible have been proven completely false.
A peer-reviewed scientific study published in 2001 did indicate that prayer works. According to this article:
“On October 2, 2001, the New York Times reported that researchers at prestigious Columbia University Medical Center in New York had discovered something quite extraordinary. Using virtually foolproof scientific methods the researchers had demonstrated that infertile women who were prayed for by Christian prayer groups became pregnant twice as often as those who did not have people praying for them. The study was published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine. Even the researchers were shocked. The study’s results could only be described as miraculous.”
This study was later proven to be completely fraudulent. However, everyone who cut out the original article in the NYTimes and posted it on their refrigerators still has that article as “proof” that prayer works.
This article entitled A prayer before dying uncovers another case where a “scientific study” of prayer is unmasked as fraudulent.
It’s not just prayer that is ineffective. Not even a hopeful attitude helps. According to this article:
A positive attitude does not improve the chances of surviving cancer and doctors who encourage patients to keep up hope may be burdening them, according to the results of research released Monday.
The dictionary defines the word “superstition” in this way:
An irrational belief that an object, action, or cirgreat timesstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. [ref]
The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The “power of prayer” is actually “the power of coincidence.”
Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary.
Understanding the Rationalizations
You can find many believers who will say, “The reason why scientific experiments fail to detect God is because God must remain hidden. He does not answer prayers if he knows that he will be detected.”
In order to see the truth, you need to accept that this explanation is silly. If God must remain hidden, then he cannot answer any prayers. Any “answered prayer” would expose God.
The whole notion that “God” must remain “hidden” is a total cross-threading of religious doctrine. On the one hand, believers will say that “God wrote the Bible, God incarnated himself and died on the cross for us, and God answers millions of prayers on earth every day.” Then in the next breath they will say, “God must remain hidden.” God obviously cannot “remain hidden” and “incarnate himself.” These two items are mutually exclusive. Therefore, the explanation that “God must remain hidden” is impossible. As soon as you accept how impossible it is, you can begin to see see that God is imaginary.
In order to see the truth, you need to accept the fact that the scientific evidence is accurate and irrefutable. We have scientifically proven that God does not answer any prayers on earth. Every single “answered prayer” is nothing more than a coincidence.
We can see reality by looking at a simple example. Imagine that the rate of remission for some particularly nasty type of cancer is 5%. That means that if 20 people get this type of cancer, it is almost always fatal. Only one in twenty of the people who get the disease will survive. Knowing this, you can see what happens if we actually analyze prayer:
20 believers contract the disease
All of them have read James 5:15, so all of them pray.
19 of them die
The one who lives proclaims, “I prayed to the Lord and the Lord answered my prayers! My disease is cured! It is a miracle! I KNEW God would answer my prayers!”
You never hear about the 19 who died. No one ever writes about them in a magazine. “Person prays, then dies” is not a great headline. And since they are dead, you will never hear from any of these people.
Therefore, if you don’t look at all the facts around the “answered prayer,” and you only hear about the one out of twenty prayers that succeed, it appears that prayer is successful.
The fact is, believers who pray die from this disease at exactly the same rate as people who do not.
We can see the reality of this situation simply by opening our eyes and looking at the data. But we do have to open our eyes — We have to look at both the successes AND the failures of prayer to see the reality of our world. When we take a scientific approach and we do look at both sides, we see what is really happening. God does not answer any prayers because God is imaginary.
TL;DR: Answered prayers are mere coincidences. (It’s worth a read though)shrtcat edited this message on 12/06/2008 9:57PM
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 9:56PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 9:58PM||View BirdofPrey's Profile | #|
“sometimes the answer is no”
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 9:58PM||View BirdofPrey's Profile | #|
tldr Closet of Shame
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:01PM||View Inertia's Profile | #|
This is copypasta from www.godisimaginary, btw.
This one made me lol out loud. Read the conversation.
If you talk to a Christian about heaven, you can clearly understand that the notion of heaven and everlasting life is imaginary. Each conversation will be different, but a typical conversation might go something like this:
Chris: Jesus transcends death and promises eternal life to all who believe in him! Lift up your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ and he will give you eternal life!
Norm: How will he do that?
Chris: Have you ever read the book called “Left Behind?”
Chris: You should! They have sold over 20 million copies of the book, because it is the truth! It describes exactly what will happen. One day the Lord Jesus calls his children home, and they are carried straight to heaven! Airplanes crash because their pilots have vanished. Cars run into phone poles. This is exactly what is described in the Bible.
Norm: The people completely vanish?
Chris: Yes. All that is left behind is their clothes, their jewelry and their hearing aids! The believers are transported directly to heaven!
Norm: Their naked bodies are transported to heaven?
Norm: There are six billion people on the planet. They each weigh about 150 pounds or so. Are you telling me that God lifts a trillion pounds of human flesh off the planet in an instant?
Chris: Absolutely not! Only the believers are transported!
Norm: OK, half a trillion pounds?
Norm: And where does this half a trillion pounds of flesh go?
Chris: To heaven!
Norm: To heaven… where is that?
Chris: It is in another dimension, of course! God lives in heaven!
Norm: How do all the bodies get to this “other dimension” called “heaven”? Do they float up into the sky and then travel through the vacuum of space?
Chris: No, silly! They are dematerialized and then rematerialize in heaven!
Norm: So you are saying that half a trillion pounds of naked human flesh are somehow “dematerialized” out of our universe, and then they “rematerialize” in “another dimension” called “heaven?” And the “dematerializing” process somehow distinguishes between natural human flesh and unnatural things like clothing and hearing aids?
Norm: So… what if the person has artificial heart valves, a couple of stents and two titanium hip joints? Are those ripped out of his body and left behind with his jewelry?
Norm: And what happens to that poor person, whose heart collapses and whose legs are now flopping around detached from his pelvis?
Chris: The book doesn’t really talk about that… I imagine God would fix them up!
Norm: And what about all the people whose bodies are wracked with cancer and AIDS and emphysema?
Chris: God fixes them all up too!
Norm: And what about all the decrepit 80-year-old bodies?
Chris: God gives them new, young, beautiful bodies!
Norm: And what about all the people whose bodies have died and decomposed?
Chris: God gives them young, new, beautiful bodies too!
Norm: So why bother transporting the bodies of the believers to heaven? Why not just give everyone a new, young, beautiful body and leave their old bodies on earth?
Chris: The Bible says that your body is transported to heaven! It is right there in black and white in the “Left Behind” books! That is God’s will!
Norm: OK, so heaven is full of people whose bodies or corpses or whatever have been “dematerialized” from earth, and then “rematerialized” in “heaven.” And then the dematerialized/rematerialized bodies are discarded, and they are replaced with new, young, beautiful bodies?
Chris: Yes! Now you understand the power of the Lord Jesus Christ!
Norm: What happens next?
Chris: The believers all live in heaven in peace, harmony and joy for eternity!
Norm: What is heaven like?
Chris: We get to reunite with all of our dead friends and family members! We get to meet our ancestors for the first time!
Norm: What about people like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin?
Chris: Everyone is there! You can talk to anyone all through history! Plus you get to meet God and Jesus. I can’t wait to meet Jesus!
Norm: That sounds like fun. What else?
Chris: Well, the streets are paved in gold! It says so in the Bible! And everyone has a big house! And you can eat whatever you want and not get fat! And really, you just do anything that makes you happy! Everyone is always happy!
And so on.
After listening to a conversation like this, it should be obvious to all of us: Heaven is imaginary. It is all completely imaginary.
Simply talk to Christians about heaven. Ask them to describe what heaven is like, and how they will get there. You will be able to feel the absurdity of this notion in two different ways:
There is the direct absurdity as in the dialog above, where the creation of entirely new and completely imaginary “dimensions” and “materialization processes” tells you everything you need to know about how delusional things can get.
There is also the absurdity that comes when you compare any two people’s views of heaven. Everyone’s fabrication of heaven is different. For some it involves harps and clouds and halos. For others it involves hot and cold running virgins. For some people, the actual body is transported magically to heaven as described in the “Left Behind” books. For others, your “soul” floats out of the body and makes it way to St. Peter. And so on. People make up anything they like, because heaven is a completely imaginary place.
Heaven is a fairy tale invented by human imagination. And each person’s fairy tale is different.
We imagine that we have “souls,” fabricate the concept of “eternal life” and then fantasize a place called “heaven,” complete with streets of gold, calorie-free foods, frolicking virgins and whatever else we can come up with. Christians imagine it so vividly and repeat the fantasy so often that they actually believe it to be reality.
How bizarre can the fantasies get? Fly to Cairo and take a look at the Great Pyramid. There is the pyramid itself — still one of the largest man-made objects on earth. In addition there is the whole mummification process, the disbumembled boats, the sacred artwork and so on. All of this was designed to help the pharaoh reach the afterlife. We look at it now and we all know, with absolute certainty, that it was a complete and total waste of time. The Egyptian notion of the afterlife was a fantasy.
The Christian notion of the afterlife is a fantasy in exactly the same way. Heaven is completely imaginary, just like God.shrtcat edited this message on 12/06/2008 10:09PM
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:01PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:03PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
I had to stop reading after that
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:10PM||View ShadyPixels's Profile | #|
Once I asked my mum that if in the afterlife I went to Hell and she went to Heaven, would she feel sorrow. She paused a while and said that she cannot feel sorrow in heaven, and our family bond would be broken anyway.
I pressed on and said that if you cannot feel sorrow then you would not feel joy also because those feelings are the result of the change in mood, not the mood itself. She gave up.
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:11PM||View Inertia's Profile | #|
lol, Inorite? The whole bolded part is really weird, but kinda made me lol.shrtcat edited this message on 12/06/2008 10:16PM
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:11PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
Wow, that’s deep. How long ago did you say this?shrtcat edited this message on 12/06/2008 10:22PM
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:16PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
not too long ago actually.
Would have more impact if I was like 8 huh?
edit: I’m 19 nowInertia edited this message on 12/06/2008 10:23PM
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:22PM||View Inertia's Profile | #|
Yeah lol, I first thought that you meant you said this a long time ago, but then I realised you didn’t and edited my post.
People would probably tag you as “Satan reborn” if you said this when you were 8. lol
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:31PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
****ING BUMP. Log in to see images!
|Posted On: 12/06/2008 10:57PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
You can’t prove the existence of a “God” either way. Thing is, there is no clear, objective definition of what he/she/it/they even is/are; the possible combinations are infinite, especially because they can include certain “fuzzy” attributes that can not be defined or validated either, such as “just” and “almighty”. And if you can give him/her/it/them any attribute whatsoever – including unmeasurable ones – how could you determine whether or not it exists? Even if you you try to analyse certain attributes – such as “answers prayers” – the result still is open to discussion. Sure, it seems silly, but even if you end up with data that appears to contradict the existence of a “God”, you can simply switch attributes or revise definitions or challenge to process or something like that, and the data doesn’t apply anymore.
End of discussion. Log in to see images!Professor Falken edited this message on 12/07/2008 10:01AM
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 9:57AM||View Professor Falken...'s Profile | #|
Professor Falken Posted:
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 1:00PM||View shrtcat's Profile | #|
Hm. Alright, I shall have a look. Here we go…
... alright. That website mostly just aims at SPECIFIC BELIEFS, not the CONCEPT of a “God” entity in general. Remember, when I say “God”, I mean the CONCEPT OF THE PRESENCE OF A SUPER-”NATURAL” (super-materialistic) ENTITY, not any specific deity described by some religion.
Here’s a more in-depth breakdown:
#1, #5, #10, #13, #14, #15, #16, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23, #25, #26, #29, #30, #32, #33, #34, #35 etc. exclusively deal with Christian beliefs. Maybe the views/arguments presented here are correct, sure, but “one religion might be wrong” doesn’t equal “there is no god, afterlife, soul or anything”.
#2 is pretty rigid with the expected results, and focuses on Christianity. Also, if a deity really showed mercy, wouldn’t it rather give you a quick death and enjoyable afterlife rather than have you endure this existence any longer? Or something like that?
#3 makes a good point, but it doesn’t prove anything. Not having found the correct alternative yet doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
#4 made me groan. Imagine you’re looking at a particularly complicated machine, and you’re trying to find an explanation as to why it works in the way it does. You could say “Well, because its creator made it so” and move on, or you could lean a little closer and find out the MECHANIC that makes it work. Both views are equally valid – just not equally useful – and “this cog moves that sprocket” DOES NOT disprove “the engineer made it so”.
#6 has actually troubled philosophers for a long time (just with different examples), and gave rise to many outlandish theories of the “Best Of All Possible Worlds”. It still doesn’t disprove the existence of a “God” entity IN GENERAL, though. All it does is make a detailed masterplan AS DESCRIBED seem doubtful.
#7 is right… basically. But “seeming highly unusual” (or rather, “borderline very special”Log in to see images! DOES NOT equal “wrong” or “impossible”. “Sensibility” or “common sense” doesn’t matter when you’re trying to scientifically prove or disprove a theory. Santa Clause IN THE DESCRIBED FORM can be scientifically / empirically disproved by investigating the North Pole and checking for presents to appear. “God” AS A CONCEPT cannot, since you can just choose the attributes so the data does not contradict it.
#8: “Is this a direct proof that God is imaginary? No. However, it is a direct proof that the NDE (which many people use as “indisputable” proof that God and eternal life exist) has no supernatural meaning.” Nothing to add here.
#9 is sort of like #2. Maybe it contradicts the beliefs about Christian prayers, I’ll give them that. The CONCEPT of a supernatural entity (“God”Log in to see images! or a soul or something still stands.
#11 made me groan the second time. How do we know the deity did/does not leave any evidence? Maybe we’re just misinterpreting the data. Hell, if you take “God” only as a creator, the existence of the universe would be enough evidence. Again, if you choose “God”’s attributes right, these arguments fizzle.
#12 is, again, somewhat centered around Christianity and the “clbumic” flavour of religion. Also, you could even answer this SPECIFICALLY, as its mostly a semantic argument. Maybe the word “magic” was just used as a crutch for us because our feeble minds simply can’t grasp the way “God” works in?
#17 is absolutely correct: As with any theory whatsoever, you cannot prove that ””God” exists” is true. You can only try to find evidence for the contrary, which – for reasons described in my previous post – is impossible.
#24 only proves that there’s a lot of morons to be found in every demographic, which is the sad truth. However, this doesn’t say anything about the issue at hand.
#27 is just wild claims. You may not be able to prove the existence of a “soul”, but you also cannot disprove it.
#28 is basically #3. Also: Maybe nobody found the right alternative yet, maybe “God” doesn’t benefit his/her/its/their believers THAT WAY, there’s also no evidence to the contrary that can’t be avoided by switching definitions, blah blah blah. “There is zero evidence that any of these gods exist” – yes. “That is how we know that they are all imaginary.” – NO!
#31 aims at specific beliefs, not the concept in general.
#34: See #31.
I could go on like this, but I’d just be repeating myself. Therefore:
tl;dr: Maybe you can challenge specific notions of “God” (e.g. Christianity), but the concept in general can’t be falsified or verified. That is to say, you can’t prove Materialism or Atheism to be correct.
God can be scientifically disproven, if his attributes are of the right kind… which is exactly where the trouble lies. Since you can give him/her/it/them any attribute whatsoever – including unmeasurable ones – how could you determine whether or not it exists?Professor Falken edited this message on 12/07/2008 2:02PM
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 2:00PM||View Professor Falken...'s Profile | #|
this doesn’t refute deism anyway
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 2:06PM||View ScreamOfConsciou...'s Profile | #|
prayers are just words that u say
in reality, u r the only one listening
u just let urself be disillusioned into thinking that someone else cares
the other person that cares is called god
but of course, no one is listening, so therefore
there is no one else to care
by transitivity, god is no one
“no one” is not an existent object / person / idea etc
thus, god is not an existent object / person / idea etc
thus, god doesnt exist
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 2:07PM||View ghax's Profile | #|
lol affirming the consequent
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 2:09PM||View ScreamOfConsciou...'s Profile | #|
besides, god is nothing more than a social construct set up by the government for the purposes of explaining phenomena that science is currently unable to explain
why would the government EVER care about the people’s wishes?
*** forbid that the government ever does its job correctly
since the government does not care about the individuals it controls,
god cannot be real
(none of my non-atheist friends have security cameras in their rooms,
so i don’t rly see how anyone could hear their prayers)
|Posted On: 12/07/2008 2:11PM||View ghax's Profile | #|