DOPE-HARDCORE-0 Posted:

I already said it in the OP. I’m not arguing GOD v. NO GOD. It’s been done elsewhere. Religion is not faith: Faith is a personal belief structure to which you, for whatever reason, prescribe. Religion is the dogmatic, often hierarchical secular construct which pbumes itself off as the gateway between you, the believer, and whatever heaven/paradise/virgins your faith promises you at death if you are true to yourself, your god, and your faith.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying – and agreed. As far as I’m concerned, faith is the personal, individual system of beliefs that one single individual, for whatever reason, subscribes to. I’ve got no problems with faith.

Religion, on the other hand, seems to be what happens when that individual becomes convinced that it is their God-given right to force other people to agree with them and enforce/promise dire consequences if they don’t.

QFT:

Basically, it’s the cult/brainwashing stuff that springs forth from literal readings of books, if you want my opinion. I don’t care about what god or how many you have, whether you have a spirit or not…these are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The question is how a sane, rational person can buy into the normative ideals fostered by a given religious organization. Welcome to the thread.

Thanks!

To answer the question, I’m not entirely sure. I would say that there could be any number of reasons – comfort, an easing of the myriad difficulties which arise from thinking for oneself, fear of the unknown (although I’m not sure how that would be diminished – it seems to me that many religions focus largely on a fear that verges upon paranoia of Something Bad that they never quite explicitly define), and maybe even something as simple as a desire to ‘fit in’ to the community currently surrounding them.

On the other hand, though, you specified that we’re talking about people who are both fully sane and fully rational…and honestly, I don’t think I have any answers to that question.

There’s one taking form in my mind, though, I believe. Just need some time to mull it over and flesh it out. I have to find a way around the problem of a person who recognizes the inherent difficulties of belief in an empirical reality solving those difficulties by method of declaring, with no readily apparent rational justification whatsoever, divine purpose for it all.

crAFTY_turTLE Posted:

I’m gonna read the topic (I got lazy but I’ll read, I just wanted to be honest before posting) but I must define my believes in my answer? Just that? Oh simple… I’m catholic and I’m college student. Most of the time I keep my believes to myself, I don’t believe my religion is the correct one, and I believe that God loves us all. People has prejudices and preopinions but God doesn’t. I believe that all religions are correct but I am catholic because I already accepted it’s dogmas and I don’t wanna change my religion, I’m fine the way I am. That’s is it…

No offense meant, but isn’t that ever so slightly intellectually lazy?

From a Christian perspective, there is quite a bit of value in apologetics – know your faith, so that when it is attacked, you may blunt your attackers’ momentum and then turn it back upon them. After all, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” (Rev3:15-16)

As for my above post, I believe I’ve arrived at a conclusion.

First off, it would be of no small worth to be familiar with the works of David Hume, and most especially his philosophical theories.

According to a skeptical view of philosophy, reality simply cannot be proven. First, let’s examine the senses. When we sense something, there are several separate biological and cognitive processes at work – and for the purpose of the discussion, given lack of evidence to the contrary and plentiful evidence supporting, let’s bumume that the mind is actually a biological process centered in the brain.

When we sense, first, we have the object (which for the purposes of this discussion, we are bumuming exists). This is the primary perception, and that which we cannot know. tl;dr: the object is the primary perception.

Next, we have the infinite primary perceptions in between the object we are perceiving and our sense organs. Countless molecules, air currents, infinitesimal chemical processes and reactions, all occurring in between the object and our perception of such, and each altering it in its own infinitesimal way – but altering it nonetheless. Already we see a problem with reliability of the senses beginning to take form.

Next, we have the sense organs themselves. Due to biological variability, anatomical, genetic, and other such differences, we can safely bumume that no two people will ever share an identical perception of anything – for in order for one person to share a truly identical perception with another, the two would have to be one and the same (and we’re still only accounting for strictly environmental and biological differences – we haven’t touched mental ones yet).

Next, we have the biological channels from the sense organs to the brain itself, which are, of course, due to biological necessity, widely varied from person to person in terms of exact anatomical makeup.

Next, we have the brain/mind itself, understanding the perception which the sense organs are relaying to it. This would be the secondary perception, and the only one we humans are currently capable of knowing, due to the brain/mind’s complete lack of independent (of the body and crude biological sphere, that is) sense organs. tl;dr: the brain/mind cannot perceive anything directly. Thus, all perceptions are suspect.

With this, we can safely conclude that the physical world around us, though we may understand it to exist, cannot be proven to exist – for we cannot even agree that it is the same. If we are not all living in the same physical reality, than none of us have independent observers to verify our observations regarding the physical world – and thus, all we have to prove the physical are our own (weak and tenuous, at best) physical perceptions. I believe that I am typing on a computer right now – that I am listening to music, that I can smell the remnants of breakfast wafting in from the kitchen, that I can feel the clack of the keys underneath my fingers. These perceptions, however, are all suspect, for the sole reason that I cannot sense a single one of them directly with my advanced mental faculties as opposed to crude biological faculties. Each of these perceptions has to follow a long and convoluted path fraught with possibility for error before even reaching my brain, and from there, my brain has to form these secondary perceptions into something my mind, as a non-physical entity, can understand.

Reality is suspect.

From here, we can go on to examine the mind itself – ”Ergo, cogito sum”, right? “I think, therefore I am”?

There is a problem with Voltaire’s famous treatise: what, exactly, is “I”? Is it the mind? The body? The two together? Is the mind independent of the body still “I”? Can “I” be conclusively proven by independent observation to be a single, distinct entity independent of all others?

...Well, no, not really. You see, following with the above theory regarding reality, we discover that “I” am the only person who can observe and/or verify the existence of “I”, and we enter a the realm of circular logic: I exist because I exist, and I know this because I know it.

A cannot prove A, and B cannot prove B.

With that, we have no way to verify that anything outside of our own minds exists, and if nothing outside of our minds exists, than all we have is inside the realm of our mental perception (imagination, if you will). We imagine our worlds.

With all of this, we begin to see the universe lose any semblance of a logical existence. Everything begins to lose all meaning, and thoughts and perceptions become caught up in Möbius loops of circular logic where the end is the beginning is the end.

From here, why not believe in a God? Nothing matters anyway, since all is illusion, so if the belief in a God gives pleasure, obviously, this God can no more exist than anything else, but hell, we imagine our own realities anyway, so why not imagine a God simply because we can?

Final tl;dr: If nothing is real and our existence is nothing but smoke and mirrors, why not believe in a God? In a meaningless existence, objective values of “reality” and “nonreality” lose all meaning, and if it gives one pleasure to create a God for one’s own individual reality, nobody else can say that that God doesn’t exist for that person, since in that person’s reality, nobody else exists except as fragments of that person’s imagination.

So in conclusion, yes, it could very well be possible for a sane, rational, educated person to believe in a deity of some sort. It would just take some fairly intense mental contortions to get there.

wow…very serious thread going on in here.. Log in to see images!

i am born Muslim,raised Muslim, and still Muslim…

personally..maybe you people can say that i am indoctrinated to become muslim..i study Islam since early childhood..eventhough i go to catholic private schools in my hometown,but still i study Islam and read Quran in early childhood,learn how to fast,pray,etc..

when i start my college, i am bit lost in the way that make me want to become atheist..i have former catholic friend turn to be atheist..maybe because of him..hahaha.. Log in to see images!

personally i think my religion, Islam, is serious stuff..God in Islam is the same God that Jesus prayed too,Moses,Abraham,and other prophet..i cant tell much,because i am not really an expert of Islam, I am not an Imam..i am afraid people judge my Religion because of me,because of what i do ( the same thing that Dave Chappelle told Oprah why he don’t want people know if he is Muslim),hell, i playing forumwarz as camwhore..Log in to see images!

if you really want to know about Islam, i recommend you to read Translated Al Quran..

ps.please don’t troll me because i am muslim..Log in to see images!

Why would anyone troll you about that? Thats what I mean! If all religions were taught in a mandatory way in first grade and then not again, people could choose and not fight anymore!;

If you repeat something long enough, you believe it. Atheists=people who were not repeated to often enough to create a permanent belief, Christians=people who did have it repeated enough. Furthermore, as everyone is different, the ammount of repetition neccessarry depends on the person.

i read thru this whole thing, and i dont plan to again just to quote someone, but to the one who said something about our lives are nothing but in our mind, anything we do, think of this, (in the way you put it)

i am in YOUR world, by being here, by replying to this same thread, by interacting by you, but in this same thought, this makes you part of MY world, what says im not a figment of you imagination, what says your not of mine?

im in your world, yet your in mine, conflicting minds maybe? or does the mind give the beings minds of their own, in saying this, whos mind are we from, are you from mine, am i from yours, or are we of someone elses?

not trying to shoot you down, just pointing this out

Techno Phoebe Posted:

Why would anyone troll you about that? Thats what I mean! If all religions were taught in a mandatory way in first grade and then not again, people could choose and not fight anymore!;

yeah..i am quite moderate muslim..most of muslim i know was moderate and people who blow himself is not muslim in my opinion (even my mom said that to me!)

yeah..in Islam it is Mandatory and Obligation for every Parent to teach their kids Islam, morality and stuff..but it ends after their kids achieve puberty, coz they are consider to become an adult.But parent can still remind them though to do fasting or pray but its not Parent’s obligation anymore.

I read Psalms and fell in love with God.

I got an education and dismissed the idea.

I read some Pirsig, Jung and freaky stuff on quantum physics and don’t know what to think anymore.

Absurdism FTW

EDIT-

As for religion, who cares? People will always drift into little cliques. Ritual can be fun, and the value added to your life can be more than worth the obvious contradictions in mythology.

Relax, the Age of Reason came about long before you were even born. Bat**** loco fundies are not the problem you think they are. The Westboro Baptist Church has been seen as a blessing to gay rights activists everywhere, and limitless amounts of entertainment for me and my friends.

I feel like religion is a necessary evil. I was raised religious (protestant, various), and maintained my religiousity until my early twenties, and slowly but surely started to reevaluate what I actually believed vs. what I held on to because I didn’t want to stop believing that my parents knew everything.

I now subscribe to an “I don’t know ****” philosophy. I believe that there is a God, for no other reason than I just have a sense. But I don’t believe anything in particular about the nature of God. In fact, I would say I have opinions on some of the various possible personalities of God.

1: If he’s supposed to be this totally loving creator, loving all of us equally, without prejudice, then how could hell exist? Because I *don’t* love everyone equally, without prejudice, and I would be hard pressed to send anyone to hell if I was given that opportunity.

2: If he’s vindictive and *does* send people to hell, then I’m not interested in being one of his people. I refuse to worship out of fear. I would worship out of respect, love, trust, etc. Not fear. Nope.

3: This seems most likely to me. God is laissez-faire. He built the earth, and all within it, and said “That’s some cool **** right there!” And now he sits back and watches as we do what we do. I think God is more like an anthropologist, and we are a grand science experiment. And I’m fine with that.

But I do think religion is necessary. I believe humanity, as a whole, is inherently good. I think we do ****ty things, and I think there are certainly people who are bad to the core, but in general I think we incline to good. And I think some people can achieve a balance without religion, and some people either need religion to remind them of how to be, or they need the support to work through the difficult times in their lives, or maybe they feel like they need the punishment so they don’t behave in some of the ways they might otherwise do…because some people *do* respond to fear. And maybe they actually believe all the things that are in their religious doctrine, or maybe they just fool themselves into thinking they believe those things. I’m sure it’s different for every, single person.

Unfortunately, you also have those bad seeds who take the good in religion and turn it around to abuse people, both mentally/emotionally and physically. I think religion, at least the more controlling forms of it, will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs, and we’ll start to see more people embracing things like Buddhism or Unitarian Universalism. Less God, more golden rule, if you will. That takes some of the control out of being an adherent, and allows people to be good because it’s the right thing to do.