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Gay Are people born gay?

elenaratelim-
it

Avatar: 24791 2010-03-21 18:12:06 -0400
17

[Team Shortbus]

Level 44 Troll

chica bonita

If a woman has many girl on girl make out experiences but then marries a man and has children and leads a happy life for the rest of time… is she bisexual or a heterosexual that had lesbian experiences?

If a man has one gay sex experience and later marries and has kids and also has a happy successful marriage; is he bisexual or a heterosexual that had a homosexual experience?

If someone only wants to be with someone of the opposite sex IRL but constantly fantasizes about someone of the same sex, but doesn’t consider themselves bisexual as it is just that particular fantasy… are they bisexual?

And again, if homosexual is describing a conduct that is easy to label, what about people that ‘identify’ as homosexual but have never ever even kissed someone of the same sex? Are they homosexuals or just homosexuals in thought? What is a homosexual if it is not just the conduct? If it is an identity, then obviously social construction plays a role.

Either way I just illustrated quite easily many ways in which lines are blurred all the time. You could say homosexual means someone who thinks a certain way about someone of the opposite sex – in which case there is no conduct to focus on. Or you could say it is just the conduct, but conduct doesn’t always reflect identity.

“The point of critiquing gay identity was not to disqualify it, or to do away with sexual labels altogether, or to advocate some avant-garde suspension of all sexual meaning and all sexual categories. Rather, the point of critiquing gay identity was to open the way to the formation new multiplicities of gay identities which the insistence on a singular, already established and defined gay identity served to impede.”

^^^^ what I am getting at but too abstract to properly discuss on a forum via typing

elenaratelimit edited this message on 09/20/2009 8:37PM

man-man

Avatar: 156485 2010-01-24 16:36:14 -0500
24

[Harem and Sushi Bar]

Level 69 Hacker

Selfish fine upstanding member of society

Are we defining the same thing? The word can be as clear-cut as it’s definition allows, people will fit that definition to varying degrees – some to the point where they feel the word is an honest description of themselves, others… not so much. In those cases we either need more words to cover the different possibilities, or we might be able to get along fine with the words we have and some qualifiers or explanation.

When it comes down to it, the meaning of the word “heterosexual” is clear. What’s not clear is whether every person describing themself as heterosexual entirely fits the definition. There’s where the spectrum comes in… you might describe yourself as primarily hetero but “curious”, or bi with homosexual leanings. The fuzzy edges aren’t in the words and definitions, it’s in the people. That may well mean we’re never going to give a perfectly accurate description of a person’s orientation with the words we’ve got, but we’ll come closer that way than by abandoning the idea that words have meaning.

Yes, there are social constructions around sexual orientations, these constructs might be widespread or filter into law, but they aren’t a necessary part of the word’s meaning, they’re extra meaning that we attach to the word as a culture. It can lead to dire places… especially if certain religions get involved in lawmaking… but still, not fundamentally a part of the meaning of “heterosexual” or “homosexual”.

hows [sic] your lack of education on the subject

No need for casting of aspersions. If you’re going to fall back on what is essentially “Well if you’d read what I’d read then you’d know how wrong you are.” then we’re done here because I’m not going to argue with someone who won’t deign to actually explain their position.

Edit: Damnit, hold still… if you’re going to post more while I’m typing then I’m going to miss things that want responding to.

man-man edited this message on 09/20/2009 8:43PM

man-man

Avatar: 156485 2010-01-24 16:36:14 -0500
24

[Harem and Sushi Bar]

Level 69 Hacker

Selfish fine upstanding member of society

You know what, I’m just going to take these one at a time as a demonstration of how use of language doesn’t have to be brain-rapingly complicated.

If a woman has many girl on girl make out experiences but then marries a man and has children and leads a happy life for the rest of time… is she bisexual or a heterosexual that had lesbian experiences?

When she was having girl-on-girl experiences, bumuming she was into it (and not just drunk or coerced or whatever) then her behaviour suggests she was a lesbian. If she later loses all interest in other women and marries a man, she is then a heterosexual. If at either point she was also attracted to the other sex, she was a bisexual at that point. People change over time, nothing hard about that unless you think people are supposed to have one fixed definition, or ascribe more to the definition than belongs there.

If a man has one gay sex experience and later marries and has kids and also has a happy successful marriage; is he bisexual or a heterosexual that had a homosexual experience?

Likewise, he’s a guy who changed. Maybe he retained a little homosexual feeling despite his heterosexual marriage… maybe not, spectrum.

If someone only wants to be with someone of the opposite sex IRL but constantly fantasizes about someone of the same sex, but doesn’t consider themselves bisexual as it is just that particular fantasy… are they bisexual?

Cut through the confusion inherent in trying to firmly delineate one way or the other and actually describe the situation the way it is – they’re primarily heterosexual but have bisexual fantasies.

If I had to pick one or the other (I don’t think we do, but if) then I’d say heterosexual iff they don’t think they could ever actually be attracted to a member of the opposite sex, but I’d have to ask… what if the object of their fantasy showed up in real life, surely then they’d have to consider themself bisexual.

And again, if homosexual is describing a conduct that is easy to label, what about people that ‘identify’ as homosexual but have never ever even kissed someone of the same sex? Are they homosexuals or just homosexuals in thought? What is a homosexual if it is not just the conduct? If it is an identity, then obviously social construction plays a role.

I would place the emphasis on what people want or are attracted to. If they “do the deed” for whatever reason but don’t enjoy it, want it or feel attraction towards their partner then their conduct is irrelevant. If they want it but aren’t doing it (maybe they can’t find a willing partner, or other things are more important) then they’re still whatever orientation they identify as.

Either way I just illustrated quite easily many ways in which lines are blurred all the time. You could say homosexual means someone who thinks a certain way about someone of the opposite sex – in which case there is no conduct to focus on. Or you could say it is just the conduct, but conduct doesn’t always reflect identity.

People are going to lie across the lines however sharply or fuzzily you draw them, but a sharply drawn line is less confusing and more useful when you want to talk about things, we just have to put a little more effort into describing the complicated feelings we can have than sticking a single word to them.

”The point of critiquing gay identity was not to disqualify it, or to do away with sexual labels altogether, or to advocate some avant-garde suspension of all sexual meaning and all sexual categories. Rather, the point of critiquing gay identity was to open the way to the formation new multiplicities of gay identities which the insistence on a singular, already established and defined gay identity served to impede.”

I’m starting to suspect that on the important things we actually agree, but some difference in wording/reading/thinking is preventing that from becoming obvious.

man-man edited this message on 09/20/2009 9:29PM

Halo300010

Avatar: Code (Green)

Level 6 Hacker

“Script Kiddie”

Imho, it happens early in life, and can happen from alot of things. Suc as being molested, or being depressed. Having a hard time at school and home.

I don’t think people are born to be gay.

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