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Business all right, seriously, it's time we rethought how buildr works

Fortunato

Avatar: 72902 2010-02-03 18:45:17 -0500
32

[Grey Goose Mafiosi]

Level 51 Troll

ZOMBIE CANNONBALL OF GORE

As yet again, we end up with more submissions than we know what to do with. The current system is rife with abuse and buildr score simply raises the amount of abuse that can happen.

I’m not really saying I know how it needs to change but I know it needs to change.

some ideas:

-weighted voting by buildr score

i.e.: having a score over 5 gives you 2 votes for one, having a score over 10 gives you 3 votes and so on.

-limiting categories one can submit to by buildr score

i.e.: a score at 0 or below means you can only submit titles or angry replies, a score over 2 means you can submit another category, over 4 means you can submit 3 categories total. The last category to submit to should be forum ideas.

-if not limiting categories one can submit to by score, than increasing the cost to enter certain categories such as forum ideas and logos

they currently aren’t limited, which is why you end up with rampant abuse such as the last few weeks.

-limiting buildr score increases exponentially. By this I mean that as your score gets higher, it gets progressively more difficult for it to increase and easier for it to decrease. This would also be true in reverse that is it would be harder to decrease one’s score the lower it gets. This would be a big step toward limiting the number of submissions that can happen every week.

ANyway, we’re overloaded on subs these days because we suddenly have 150k users and buildr really isn’t designed for that many imo. thoughts?

Inertia

Avatar: 60995 Fri Apr 03 12:59:05 -0400 2009
34

[Shii is gay]

Level 35 Troll

also wow i have no male reproductive organ

Bad ideas. Buildr score does not reflect voting integrity, and this point had been made before by someone else.

What I think should happen soon:

-fix the rigged algorithm for displaying submissions

-number of submission allocated per person, not per alt

Spade

Avatar: Blue Guitar

Level 33 Emo Kid

“Zorba the Bleak”

Weighted voting would only make it ever easier for Bashy to win every single week

Jalapeno Boo-
tyhole

MODERATOR
Avatar: 44 2012-11-06 12:31:55 -0500

[Crotch Zombie]

Level 44 Emo Kid

Happy fifth anniversary, Forumwarz! :pumpaul:

There are already many topics devoted to fixing how the buildrs work, most of them related to downvoting, buildr score and max submissions. Needless to say, it’s not something that’s simple to answer, nor is there any kind of consensus.

In any case, we are determined to improve things for players however possible. Over the next while I plan to lead a “task force” to help us study the available options.

In the meantime, I’d say Johnny Mac in conjunction with certain Klans’ (?) shenanigans today, bumuming it was out of protest, did little to help anyone’s cause. We’re more likely to improve things by working together and experimenting, not pulling disruptive stunts.

Jalapeno Bootyhole edited this message on 04/07/2009 12:41PM

EVECHARM

Avatar: 114577 Tue Feb 17 05:11:14 -0500 2009
14

[pizza party]

Level 35 Emo Kid

“Cutty Cutterson”

ah ninja’d >.> but ya you can’t look at the spam today and they thats the big problem with it

EVECHARM edited this message on 04/07/2009 12:33PM

Inertia

Avatar: 60995 Fri Apr 03 12:59:05 -0400 2009
34

[Shii is gay]

Level 35 Troll

also wow i have no male reproductive organ

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

In the meantime, I’d say Klan **** You’s shenanigans today, bumuming it was out of protest, did little to help anyone’s cause. We’re more likely to improve things by working together and experimenting, not pulling disruptive stunts.

lol nobody was in **** YOU, Johnny Mac started it and then it rolls from there Log in to see images!

ANGRY HOBO

Avatar: 49150 Tue Aug 11 01:43:48 -0400 2009
1

Level 28 Emo Kid

lmbo i gave this account and now its full of people :D bye all this game is ****....................

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

There are already many topics devoted to fixing how the buildrs work, most of them related to downvoting, buildr score and max submissions. Needless to say, it’s not something that’s simple to answer, nor is there any kind of consensus.

In any case, we are determined to improve things for players however possible. Over the next while I plan to lead a “task force” to help us study the available options.

In the meantime, I’d say Klan **** You’s shenanigans today, bumuming it was out of protest, did little to help anyone’s cause. We’re more likely to improve things by working together and experimenting, not pulling disruptive stunts.

You obviouly are not aweare of what happenend here. We had nothing to do with it, some might have made a share, but it was J. Macs thing, and he deserves credit for it.

But yeah I dont like how buildr works, so I tend to avoid it (like I do with the rest of the gaming aspects of this website)

Jalapeno Boo-
tyhole

MODERATOR
Avatar: 44 2012-11-06 12:31:55 -0500

[Crotch Zombie]

Level 44 Emo Kid

Happy fifth anniversary, Forumwarz! :pumpaul:

ANGRY HOBO Posted:

You obviouly are not aweare of what happenend here. We had nothing to do with it, some might have made a share, but it was J. Macs thing, and he deserves credit for it.

But yeah I dont like how buildr works, so I tend to avoid it (like I do with the rest of the gaming aspects of this website)

Fine, edited. I’m simply going off information people gave me. It doesn’t really make a difference, as Klan **** You wasn’t punished for this, but I didn’t intend to libel your Klan.

scully

Avatar: 12797 2011-08-15 04:41:50 -0400
77

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Camwhore

I'd build a road in gold just to have some dreaming...

You know, I realize this was a rather excessive display and many players caught “submission fever”, but I see joke forums, logos and styles submitted all the time. I’ve never heard of anyone getting banned for submitting something like that.

I’ve also seen duplicate submissions made. Usually I will see that a logo or forum is nearing being voted off and suddenly it will be resubmitted – both submissions are active at the same time. Has this duplicating always been illegal?

I guess it seems odd to me. Is it actually fair to ban people for things without having rules in place first? Log in to see images! scully edited this message on 04/07/2009 12:51PM

Jalapeno Boo-
tyhole

MODERATOR
Avatar: 44 2012-11-06 12:31:55 -0500

[Crotch Zombie]

Level 44 Emo Kid

Happy fifth anniversary, Forumwarz! :pumpaul:

Lester Burnham Posted:

You know, I realize this was a rather excessive display and many players caught “submission fever”, but I see joke forums, logos and styles submitted all the time. I’ve never heard of anyone getting banned for submitting something like that.

I’ve also seen duplicate submissions made. Usually I will see that a logo or forum is nearing being voted off and suddenly it will be resubmitted – both submissions are active at the same time. Has this duplicating always been illegal?

I guess it seems odd to me. Is it actually fair to ban people for things without having rules in place first? Log in to see images!

A joke submission is fine once in a while. Inadvertent dupes can be forgiven, too. People don’t generally complain about those.

What happened here was deliberately very disruptive. There is also evidence of vote collusion. Finally, we have banned for duplicate entries before, and it’s clearly written in our rules.

In Johnny’s case, I’ll admit it’s a bit like charging Al Capone with tax evasion. But frankly I think he deserves worse. Same with Fran, who submitted the same thing a dozen times just to be a troll.

Finally, as ET has stated before, it would certainly be fair to reprimand people for infractions we couldn’t have possibly thought of yet. That’s how precedents are set. I’m surprised I should have to explain this to a former mod.

scully

Avatar: 12797 2011-08-15 04:41:50 -0400
77

[Good Omens]

Level 69 Camwhore

I'd build a road in gold just to have some dreaming...

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

A joke submission is fine once in a while.

I really wonder if you get that it is that thought that makes your players insanely frustrated and annoyed from time to time. When something is ok to do sometimes it creates a feeling of complete persecution when it is suddenly punished. When player “a” can get away with this, but player “b” is punished it creates a pool of angst and hostility where those who are not in favor see no reason to continue, or if they do they see no reason not to lash out since they are expecting to be treated unfairly anyway.

There is also evidence of vote collusion.

Maybe there was stuff I didn’t see, but honestly, I think people were just bandwagoning and upvoting/downvoting whatever the hell they felt like voting. I was in idc and in the irc chats for Brainfreeze and GGM and no one was asking for votes, people were just going wacky with the creation and telling others to submit. Last week or maybe it was the week before there was a contest held asking people to submit everything as forum ideas. I saw a ton of rehashed old ideas. Hell, half the time I see old ideas from an inactive player I knew from back in Sisters of the Quivering Rose being entered as new ideas – we’re talking things from a year ago. It’s been brought up, no one cares. How is that different beyond the fact that logo was easier to spot?

I’m surprised I should have to explain this to a former mod.

Sure I was a mod, but honestly the only thing I picked up there was a good idea of what qualified as shock and what would slide through. The lines of what is ok and what is not were blurry at best even for the mods. Most days there were IMs, e-mails or forums posts from all of us wondering about some offense or near offense. That is beside the point, I’m not a mod, I’m a player and have been a player longer. I didn’t submit anything during the logo-a-thon, but as a player I don’t like the idea that there is a possibility of being banned for something I had no idea wasn’t legal. I might know it’s stupid or not intended, but much like the thing where spam tubmailing wasn’t said to be illegal and was suddenly punishable without warning, it is upsetting.

I get the dupe thing, although it’s weird when it is duping your own. (Damn wacky kids.) But, how could someone know that it is ok to submit a joke logo/forum/style/whatever sometimes, but if they submit over a certain number it is a problem?

It’s like leaving out a bowl of cookies in a room full of toddlers and expecting to come back and find that everyone only took one. I don’t want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, I never think there is a point to that, but I do think that it is a silly thing to expect gamers to police themselves and not try to game the system if the system allows for it. It is the nature of the beast. If there is a loophole it will be found and abused. It goes on weekly in Forumbuildr, legally in a very “I’m only using the mechanics as designed” sort of way. The same mechanics that allowed today’s logo fest allow forum spamming every single week. It is not as noticeable since a wall of text just takes more to deal with than a picture. I don’t have a suggestion to help fix it, but I can’t help but feel that it is a damn shame since being able to get involved in creating part of the game is so unique and it would be really cool if it wasn’t so open to abuse.

Jalapeno Boo-
tyhole

MODERATOR
Avatar: 44 2012-11-06 12:31:55 -0500

[Crotch Zombie]

Level 44 Emo Kid

Happy fifth anniversary, Forumwarz! :pumpaul:

Lester Burnham Posted:

Sure I was a mod, but honestly the only thing I picked up there was a good idea of what qualified as shock and what would slide through. The lines of what is ok and what is not were blurry at best even for the mods. Most days there were IMs, e-mails or forums posts from all of us wondering about some offense or near offense. That is beside the point, I’m not a mod, I’m a player and have been a player longer. I didn’t submit anything during the logo-a-thon, but as a player I don’t like the idea that there is a possibility of being banned for something I had no idea wasn’t legal. I might know it’s stupid or not intended, but much like the thing where spam tubmailing wasn’t said to be illegal and was suddenly punishable without warning, it is upsetting.

I get the dupe thing, although it’s weird when it is duping your own. (Damn wacky kids.) But, how could someone know that it is ok to submit a joke logo/forum/style/whatever sometimes, but if they submit over a certain number it is a problem?

It’s like leaving out a bowl of cookies in a room full of toddlers and expecting to come back and find that everyone only took one. I don’t want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, I never think there is a point to that, but I do think that it is a silly thing to expect gamers to police themselves and not try to game the system if the system allows for it. It is the nature of the beast. If there is a loophole it will be found and abused. It goes on weekly in Forumbuildr, legally in a very “I’m only using the mechanics as designed” sort of way. The same mechanics that allowed today’s logo fest allow forum spamming every single week. It is not as noticeable since a wall of text just takes more to deal with than a picture. I don’t have a suggestion to help fix it, but I can’t help but feel that it is a damn shame since being able to get involved in creating part of the game is so unique and it would be really cool if it wasn’t so open to abuse.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the only people who got tempbanned indeed resubmitted duplicate entries of other characters’ submissions. That’s illegal, full stop. No teeth-gnashing needed.

Okay, when I said I’d let a “joke entry” slide, it’s only because historically it has been someone wasting their buildr credits to make a terrible entry, which would then be obviously downvoted all to hell. It isn’t purposely disruptive, and more importantly, no users have ever complained about that — unlike what happened with this situation. (Yes, a couple of users are complaining that people were tempbanned, but I’d say that’s apples and oranges.) Once again, please note that we didn’t ban for “joke entries.” We did, however, remove the entries from forumbuildr.

Regarding abuse: Are you talking about people repeating their own non-winning entries from the previous week’s build? Or people ripping off other people’s entries and getting away with it? Because as far as I know, the former may be frustrating but it’s legal — if you’re saying it’s “cheap” and you should only be able to submit each idea once, then I’m not sure people would think that’s fair, but you’re free to try to rally the troops. As for the latter, we’ve banned for it, we will always ban for it, but we rely on users to bring it to our attention because we don’t read each entry.

To tell you the truth, I’m still bewildered about the point of this exercise and what the outcome was supposed to be. At this point, I’m bumuming it’s some kind of vague frustration over…something. At the risk of sounding naive, would anyone on the inside care to explain it to me?

meeeeeeeeee

Avatar: 15443 2010-04-04 18:27:25 -0400
49

[Brainfreeze]

Level 35 Troll

Sneakily vicious and filled with virtuous pit bulls.

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

To tell you the truth, I’m still bewildered about the point of this exercise and what the outcome was supposed to be. At this point, I’m bumuming it’s some kind of vague frustration over…something. At the risk of sounding naive, would anyone on the inside care to explain it to me?

Boredom.

Your community is seeking some kind of entertainment. Since the game isn’t entertaining, bandwagons are the in thing.

Samildanach

Avatar: 143751 Tue May 19 21:18:21 -0400 2009
11

Level 34 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

To tell you the truth, I’m still bewildered about the point of this exercise and what the outcome was supposed to be. At this point, I’m bumuming it’s some kind of vague frustration over…something. At the risk of sounding naive, would anyone on the inside care to explain it to me?

Making a point is always annoying, but it’s extra fun when they don’t bother to even explain the point they’re trying to make…

StrayNeko

Avatar: 122825 Mon Feb 16 13:17:09 -0500 2009
2

Level 35 Troll

CARAMELLDANSEN IDOLMISTRESS

I believe it was for this being the 7th week out of 8 we have a bashy forum and wanting buildr fixed or something, i don’t know exactly. But like hobo said, this wasn’t **** you trolling buildr, this was your bread and bumer, active players and active people in the community doing the trolling.

StrayNeko edited this message on 04/07/2009 11:31PM

Inertia

Avatar: 60995 Fri Apr 03 12:59:05 -0400 2009
34

[Shii is gay]

Level 35 Troll

also wow i have no male reproductive organ

Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:

To tell you the truth, I’m still bewildered about the point of this exercise and what the outcome was supposed to be. At this point, I’m bumuming it’s some kind of vague frustration over…something. At the risk of sounding naive, would anyone on the inside care to explain it to me?

Isn’t this a game about trolling anyway?

This should be expected behaviour from the players of such a game amirite?

Inertia edited this message on 04/08/2009 1:27AM

Jalapeno Boo-
tyhole

MODERATOR
Avatar: 44 2012-11-06 12:31:55 -0500

[Crotch Zombie]

Level 44 Emo Kid

Happy fifth anniversary, Forumwarz! :pumpaul:

StrayNeko Posted:

I believe it was for this being the 7th week out of 8 we have a bashy forum and wanting buildr fixed or something, i don’t know exactly. But like hobo said, this wasn’t **** you trolling buildr, this was your bread and bumer, active players and active people in the community doing the trolling.

Well, Bashy didn’t win the previous week’s build. That’s “progress,” right? Was the protest meant to say, “Make Bashy stop submitting good ideas”?

Anyway, I kind of don’t mind the idea of limiting the amount of entries per category, in addition to limiting them overall, but we’re going to have to think about it.

Montressor

Avatar: 77535 Tue Jan 13 09:44:11 -0500 2009
16

[Phantasmagoric Spl-
endor
]

Level 37 Hacker

“43 4f 44 45 20 4d 41 53 54 45 52”

meeeeeeeeee Posted:

Boredom.

Your community is seeking some kind of entertainment. Since the game isn’t entertaining, bandwagons are the in thing.

This ties in to some limited extent to dom too. Dom’s a solo game these days, nobody’s staying with klans, many of us are doing our best to provide a reason to stick around, but we’re failing. We’re having a hard time caring.

Inertia

Avatar: 60995 Fri Apr 03 12:59:05 -0400 2009
34

[Shii is gay]

Level 35 Troll

also wow i have no male reproductive organ

Montressor Posted:

This ties in to some limited extent to dom too. Dom’s a solo game these days, nobody’s staying with klans, many of us are doing our best to provide a reason to stick around, but we’re failing. We’re having a hard time caring.

Yeah I miss old klan raiding Log in to see images!

At least it was a group activity Log in to see images!

Veronica Mars

Avatar: Veronica Mars's Avatar
11

[Grey Goose Mafiosi]

Level 15 Emo Kid

“Crybaby”

Inertia Posted:

Yeah I miss old klan raiding Log in to see images!

At least it was a group activity Log in to see images!

This.

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