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|I just voted on 10 pages of forum submissions.|
Gaming the system = playing the game. Okay, Mr. Doesn’t-Participate-In-Forumbuildr, ye God of Expertise.
If scoops were 2x what they were for Styles, Threads, etc, I’d still be doing forums. If forums were 1 scoop for every 20 upvotes, instead of 5, I’d still be doing forums. Why? Because I’m good at doing forums. I got close last time on ItemBuildr, but I haven’t figured that out yet. Why did I do that? It doesn’t give any scoops yet (does it?)
I enjoy writing the forums and editing them. I also have enjoyed trying for the logos several months, but I’ve found I’m not very good at that because I don’t have the time to learn Advanced Photoshop. That’s my problem, and not anybody else’s. I’ve written plenty of threads and posts and avatars — that’s how I started out doing my Buildr thing. But it’s nowhere as complete and cohesive as it feels to write a forum.
I suppose you want to tell me what my motivations are, though, because you’ve labeled me as “BoD” or God knows what. But the truth is, the scoops and Dom don’t matter all that much to me, except to **** off obsessed morons by using only a few minutes of my time. The creative element of Forumbuildr is what I like. And gee whiz, it seems to show. God damn me for winning sometimes. God damn me to hell.
But anyone else who wins, er…. yay, they rock and are a genius, not like that horrible cheater Bashy.
Man. You guys really are amazing trolls. The people on here who’ve told me I’m really bad at trolling are, quite frankly, right. I can’t compare.
|Posted On: 03/23/2009 10:27PM||View Bashy's Profile | #|
I respect your ability to write and to win, but the hostile tone is unnecessary. If anybody’s trolling here, it’s you.
|Posted On: 03/23/2009 10:32PM||View Fortunato's Profile | #|
I think it might be better if the amount you could increase or decrease your score were more variable, and not just the values of -2, -1, 0, 1, and 2. Maybe if we had decimal buildr values so that everybody wasn’t increasing at the same rate, some people could actually pbum somebody ahead of them rather than just wait for them to stop or have a really bad submission week. Maybe then as your buildr score increases, it could become harder to gain more submissions per week, so that you get to the point where there’s a virtual (but not actual) cap on how many submissions you have.plk edited this message on 03/23/2009 11:19PM
|Posted On: 03/23/2009 11:18PM||View plk's Profile | #|
I’ve floated the idea of making buildr score increases and decreases work on a bell curve relative to a minimum and maximum ie: if you’re at a median level of buildr score and you have a decent week (75% recieving positive vote scores, 25% being voted off) you can get 2 points. If you’re at a high score (say 30+) if your week isn’t perfect or nearly so, (only 5% voted off, or even 0%), your score goes down. Thus, the standard for performance and quality according to votes increases depending on how high your score is, making it especially difficult to keep increasing week after week once you hit a certain point. In a perfect world, this would be calculated by the median or mean score for all players with a score over a given amount (say, maybe, 10?)
There’s a bit more to it but this is the basic idea, does it make sense?
|Posted On: 03/23/2009 11:27PM||View The Shade's Profile | #|
This probably isn’t the most productive way to address the situation.
Everything in this game comes down to the same problems over and over. The foundation of every system was set up for a very small player base. The base isn’t small anymore. Every game based area radically favors abuse of mechanics and time on the site. I do support rewarding long time players with the ability to optimize their play, after all if you can be a master out of the gate where is the incentive to play and improve? But, I don’t think that time advantage should allow players to position themselves in untouchable places. It is bad for the game. It alienates newer players and causes old players to leave in disgust. There is a difference between not being able to hack it and refusing to participate in something that has no merit. Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
I don’t think it should be the player’s responsibility to police the system before the game designers. It is foolish to expect gamers not to game the system. However, anyone on site for a decent amount of time easily becomes aware of the strange gap that exists between the alpha gamers and the game designers. I do think that there is a certain responsibility that the site veterans should feel to point out obvious problems.
I don’t think there is any cheating going on from plk or Bashy, and I don’t care if they are gaming the system as the system allows for it. I spent a lot of time screaming about Dom and giving grief to certain players and it is just not the players fault. Of course there is a real problem with the way things are being done. No more so than they problems that have always gone on with underhanded klan voting. I was in an off site chat earlier today and a player openly asked for votes on something. It happens, it happens all the time. Gaming the system happens.
Why not just shelf the egos and the petty bickering? Lets try to figure out something rewarding, competitive and fun. I honestly don’t understand why people are interested in winning something that takes no strategy or skill and has no competition. Is masturbation really that much better than sex for everyone?
Is the interest here in improving the quality and fairness of Forumbuildr or simply that the virtually unlimited scoop potential has made buildr the only true power left in Dom? Would capping scoop producing submissions like limiting Dom alts help? Feel free to use all your submissions in whatever area you like, but only the first “x” will produce scoop rewards. I don’t know.
|Posted On: 03/23/2009 11:33PM||View scully's Profile | #|
I’d just like to weigh in here. I actually think this thread is on its way to becoming quite constructive, so I’ll just say this:
I fully agree that there are a lot of submissions to look through, and we definitely need to play with the buildr score algorithm. It’s far too simplistic and permissive, with no foreseeable end in sight. It also throws Domination completely out of whack.
As with any site changes, we’ll have to approach with caution because it will affect some people negatively. But, short of setting a hard cap, it should become incrementally difficult to earn submission privileges as your score climbs. Reward the good posters, but don’t make it ridiculously easy to take the shotgun approach.
That said, let me add a word about Bashy, plk and other recent forumbuildr leaders: As an admin, I can see who’s posting what in forumbuildr apps. And while Bashy and plk post a hell of a lot of ideas in the hopes that one will win, they’re pretty much all gold — all of them. People have claimed they’re appealing to the “lowest common denominator,” but blame the LCD for voting them up. They’ve got plenty of more cerebral ideas too, they just don’t tend to do as well.
Gaming the system? Dunno about that. It’s a strategy, it’s legitimate, it works, and it’s resulted in great forums lately. Last year, people were complaining that there were too many avatars to choose from, and that became a competitive nightmare.
So while I agree we could stand to play with our numbers a bit, let’s not turn this into an ego war. Save that sweet, sweet venom for your Angry Replies.
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 12:20AM||View Jalapeno Bootyho...'s Profile | #|
Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:
I support this heavily. It’s logical and fair but still allows for incentive to improve. I also don’t think anyone would, a year from now, honestly enjoy trying to fill up a 200 buildr score. It’d probably result in filler entries like “HEY, DO YOU LIKE CHOCOLATE BECAUSE I AM EATING IT! =D”
(I do, and I am.)
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 12:26AM||View Bashy's Profile | #|
Jalapeno Bootyhole Posted:
Ya this I argee with to. As far as dom goes, it is a pretty big advantage when you can submit 3-6 times as many submissions as the more average player and rake in the chocolate scoops.
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 1:07AM||View EVECHARM's Profile | #|
I tried my paws at ForumBuildr once, but my idea didn’t do so well. Log in to see images!
Anyone have any tips?
EDIT: Typo.Femline edited this message on 03/24/2009 2:18AM
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 2:16AM||View Femline's Profile | #|
As far as gaming the system, I have a 34 Buildr score, which is I believe #12, and I also contribute to the mbum of Forum Ideas.
I don’t do it for the chocolate, because Forum Ideas typically net me far, far fewer chocolates than the other categories. Unlike Bashy and plk, I’m not very good at Forum Ideas, and of my 16 Forum idea submissions, I think that the highest is at +8? I routinely do well in the other categories though, in defense of those who might claim I’m trying to flood somewhere for an unfair advantage.
I’m just trying to get the peen or to contribute in an aspect I haven’t gotten the chance too yet. Does the fact that I used 16 of my 41 submissions in Forum Idea mean that I’m trying to game the system? Far from it. It’s just participating in an area of the game.
Heaven forbid people participate in ways that gives them the best possible advantage they can.
Am I supposed to feel bad for being good at Itembuildr too? I’ve gotten a free something like 35 chocos this week from Itembuildr, in addition to 100 from Buildr. Shame on me? I’m also not utilizing pistachio streaks, which in my personal opinion, are much more broken than chocos are. You have to have some creativity for chocos; pistachs are just mindless and free.
It’s all in the perception of the player. I feel like pistach looping is cheap, you guys seem to think Forum Ideas are cheap.
I don’t support making it harder for good players to get more points, I’d just rather see the points less directly tied to number of submissions, and more possibility for changing around of rank. Prior to two weeks ago, I’d gotten 2 points every week for 16 weeks. That’s too regular for a skill-based leaderboard, especially when my number of contributions ranged very widely.
What if we could make every 10 buildr points = 1 extra submission, and then have the number of items submitted every week directly be the number of points you get?
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 2:46AM||View Shii's Profile | #|
I would say steer clear of Forum Ideas when you start out. I had initial success with Thread Titles and Typical posts. Really though, different categories are easier for different people though.
|Posted On: 03/24/2009 2:47AM||View Shii's Profile | #|
This is so very true. Forum ideas are my weakness, too; I’ve only ever had one even come close to winning. Just to share observations, I’ve been submitting one forum constantly for the last few weeks; Sunday, I will net about 2-3 scoops if my forum doesn’t get downvoted -5 three minutes later. Every day after that, 1-2 scoops a day.
In contrast, when I accidentally posted a couple of thread titles to this persona instead of my multi, I ended up with 10 scoops in one day, and neither idea actually made it onto the finished forum.
Basically, what Jalapeno says about the LCD is also true. You can put up all the clever and intellectual jokes you want (I try, anyway), but it seems the ones that usually get through the most involve @insult_gay, @sex_toy, and @male reproductive organ.Blu3Schnauzer edited this message on 03/25/2009 12:12AM
|Posted On: 03/25/2009 12:11AM||View Blu3Schnauzer's Profile | #|
I’ve lately been just steering clear of those mad libs in general. Usually I won’t use more than 4-5 total in all 40+ submissions lol.
|Posted On: 03/25/2009 12:26AM||View Shii's Profile | #|
I agree that there is huge abuse potential for the chocolate scoops and I personally try my hardest with this alt to make it my best and it is the only one that I gamble every day and focus energy into scoop attaining. That being said, out of my 5 dom playing chars, he is in a three way tie for the lowest amount of medals.
Dom is currently won by Pistachio and Vanilla scoops combined with Klan bumaults, if plk or Bashy topped the Medals last year I’d be more prone to agreeing that chocolate was broken, but also I’ve seen some people who have negative Buildr scores which implies that if you get terribly downvoted, your score can go down and as such they are doing well in Buildr because they are clever.
I try my damndest and still have only one of the e-peens for contributing the most of one section despite the fact that I also try to flood the sections for the sole purpose of getting those peens. It was a sheer stroke of luck that one of my 3 submissions this week is winning for best forum, I guess I was clever for once since all others rarely break 10 upvotes, the other 2 I have are at 9 and -5 right now. (yay, I don’t have to see Bashy or plk when I check Forumbuildr next week).
Would I want to be in the same bracket as plk? Hell no, but I can’t really compete with the top players anyways, even if I pull off 100 chocolate scoops in a single week out of sheer luck, last week I nuked the guy ahead of me with an alt only to see them recover 150 scoops in under an hour in 2 batches of 70 or so. Chocolate cannot possibly compete with that and it also removes the strategic element of sitting behind the top player to avoid being bumholed since if you go to bed, you might sneak to the front and get blasted by guys who just nuke first place since they aren’t trying.
Now, if plk and Bashy join the Grey Goose Mafiosi, THEN we’d have a reason to start complaining Log in to see images! Dunatis edited this message on 03/27/2009 1:54PM
|Posted On: 03/27/2009 1:54PM||View Dunatis's Profile | #|
I agree with this.
I get +2 pretty much every week and it takes away from the sense of achievement and the challenge. I don’t know how the score increase is calculated, but if they’re going to keep the values as they are, with only -2, -1, 0, +1 and +2 available then they should make the difficulty of getting +2 scale with the score so that once it becomes harder to raise your score the higher it gets.
If the difficulty of increasing your score changed then this would create the same virtual cap on submissions as plk suggests.
|Posted On: 03/30/2009 3:26PM||View Grayson81's Profile | #|