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Domination Enhancements Thread | |||||||
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Fran Posted:
When I said “I wonder what Forumwarz would be like…” I meant that Blizzard isn’t known for making frequent fixes to balance, and when there are fixes it’s usually at severe cost to variety and thus fun. So what I meant was that WoW wasn’t balanced at all. I apologize for the confusion. |
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Posted On: 07/24/2008 7:31PM | View Tarman's Profile | # | ||||||
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SG94 Posted:
Now that would be interesting, but extremely difficult to arrange for the player in 3rd place (just one card played would break a tie) |
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Posted On: 07/25/2008 4:26AM | View meeeeeeeeee's Profile | # | ||||||
Hot damn, I didn’t even notice this thread until now. Great stuff, too bad it came after the Charisma fix (meaning that I’m going to grind Cred first). But I guess it’s OK for me not to play anyway, since apparently one big problem hasn’t been fixed yet:
BINGEBOT 2015 Posted:
It should be zero.
BTW, it’d also be nice if you kept alts from being used to help out mains at all (i.e. non-Klan alts would no longer be able to change the pwnership of a forum to non-Klan, making 12-11-12 harder). But that’s not nearly as annoying.
BTW again, there’s a very simple reason why the rules changes are unlikely to lead to Klanmates agreeing not to raid if they’re in the same bracket. |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 2:46AM | View Pluvius's Profile | # | ||||||
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its not a prisoners dilemma if we have communication with eachother. that’s kind of important to the theory. Pickled Dickbutt edited this message on 07/26/2008 4:02AM |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 3:59AM | Pickled male reproductive organbum... | # | ||||||
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Pluvius Posted:
that would make it so no small clan can compete with a big clan. The problem wouldn’t go away, necessarily, and since the clans are bigger, the bracket stacking gets bigger.
also all my alts would just collect dust |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 4:10AM | Pickled male reproductive organbum... | # | ||||||
Pickled male reproductive organbum Posted:
It’s not the lack of communication that’s important in this case, it’s the deceit and the issue of payout.
Say that you have a bracket with only four characters which are owned by four different players, and the characters are all in the same Klan. Since there are four characters, at least one of them is not going to get any medals.
Let’s say first of all that despite the fact that they’re technically helping their competitors in addition to themselves, the four go ahead and raid together as usual. They all get hundreds of scoops, and they’re all still competitive with each other at the end of the week. The big expected battle for scoops breaks out and the winners get the spoils, as usual.
Now let’s say that they all agree not to raid. They don’t get as many scoops, but they still compete with each other based on other scoop-grabbing methods, and have the same battle at the end of the week. The situation is fundamentally the same whether or not they raid; despite the fact that some players are better at solo play than raiding and vice versa, it makes essentially no difference in the general case.
Now let’s say that something far more likely happens—they all agree not to raid but one player breaks the agreement. He gets hundreds of scoops and easily wins the round, and the other players don’t get ****. He might get kicked out of the Klan, but so what? There are other Klans out there, some of which don’t know what he did and others that surely realize (possibly through hard experience) that agreements not to raid are a fool’s bargain.
In conclusion, collusion only works when the benefits of colluding are greater than the benefits of not colluding, and the penalties for breaking collusion are sufficiently great to discourage it. In this case of colluding against raiding, neither of these things is true. In fact, in a real Domination bracket agreeing not to raid would actually be worse because the other people in the bracket could more easily beat the people who aren’t raiding. |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 8:25PM | View Pluvius's Profile | # | ||||||
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Pluvius Posted: Completely agreed. It’s a simple matter of Nash equilibrium. All of the raiders benefit from their cooperation with each other, which puts them ahead of their competition. Instead of competing with 8 people, they’re competing with 4. |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 8:30PM | View Arktor's Profile | # | ||||||
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If there were more players, actively raiding in more klans, competing in the same brackets, with an evenly matched number of players, would the same hold true? We’re in a bit of a special case scenario at the moment. Yes it needs to be fixed, but the fix may be more along the lines of encouraging more raiding, than a technical fix. Or at least, both equally. |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 9:31PM | View meeeeeeeeee's Profile | # | ||||||
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meeeeeeeeee Posted:
1. Yes 2. No |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 9:33PM | View Arktor's Profile | # | ||||||
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Or to put it another way, it’s all very well fixing the special case, but the danger then is of neglecting the game as a whole, and it’s all alot of effort going around in circles, waiting for more players to start actively participating (which if they were there in the first place, might have meant the game doesn’t require so much fixing after all) |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 9:42PM | View meeeeeeeeee's Profile | # | ||||||
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meeeeeeeeee Posted:
I concur. |
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Posted On: 07/26/2008 9:45PM | View Arktor's Profile | # | ||||||
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Arktor Posted:
arktor is correct, however a nash equilibrium is not a prisoners dilemma, so pluvius is wrong. |
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Posted On: 07/30/2008 12:08PM | Pickled male reproductive organbum... | # | ||||||
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At the moment if a solo player dominates more than 4 forums he gets no vanilla. I think it would be better if there’s bonus for dominating more. How about something like this: 4 forums – 8 vanillas 6 forums – 10 vanillas 8 forums – 12 vanillas 10 forums – 14 vanillas 12 forums – 16 vanillas |
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Posted On: 08/12/2008 9:10PM | View quangntenemy's Profile | # | ||||||
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That would be a total of 60 scoops for 12 visits, whereas solo raiding right now can get you up to 8*9=72 scoops for the same 12 visits. It might be interesting to have the two choices though. |
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Posted On: 08/12/2008 9:15PM | View meeeeeeeeee's Profile | # | ||||||
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quangntenemy Posted:
I don’t think that would be worth it. Using all 12 visits would give you 60 vanilla. Currently using 12 visits you can earn 72 vanilla.
Now if you inserted those in between numbers 5 – gives 9, 7 – gives 11, 9 – gives 13 and 11 – gives 15. Then we’d be talking a worthwhile progression, since a perfect 12 would deliver 130 vanilla.
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Posted On: 08/12/2008 9:18PM | View scully's Profile | # | ||||||
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scullyangel Posted: Hm, 130 scoops is a lot, but it’s not easy for a solo player do dominate 12 forums at the same time. At the moment things are pretty quiet but once Episode 2 it out even dominating 4 forums should be difficult most of the time. But I like the idea – high payoff for a high risk. |
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Posted On: 08/12/2008 9:28PM | View Amasius's Profile | # | ||||||
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Actually you can combine the 2 methods to get more vanillas. For example you can dominate 6 to get 18, then keep it at 6 to get 60 more. |
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Posted On: 08/12/2008 9:54PM | View quangntenemy's Profile | # | ||||||
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I already emailed binge but i want this out for discussion
scullyangel: BINGEBOT 2015: I’ve been doing everything humanly possible this week in an attempt to have
10 per raid, and only being able to join the clan once per day seems fine to me, meaning it doesn’t drastically effect the ability of a small clan such as my own to raid.
however “If you are not part of a raid, you shouldn’t affect the raid 12 count of forums” combined with only 10 players per raid means that it has to be a small clan thing, but your scoop counts are severely limited. Additionally “You have to pwn one of the raid forums in order to get a klan vanilla scoop” means that anyone with an alt or two can keep you from getting any return from a raid, and they’ll get scoops for doing so. I know skully only cost us like 60 scoops from interfering, and feels she wasted a lot of time, but we were putting in time to counter her attack too. you guys think we just gather in a chat room and the scoops come pouring in?
additionally, here’s what I’d do with the intereferance scoops: when I plan to do my solos i’d have an alt start a faux clan and a raid, and pre-pwn the forums I plan to pwn. that way when i take their forums I get extra scoops. (or will it only be for dropping it from 12 to 11 forums? causing “natural turnover,” and essentially helping the raid?)
it seems to me the easiest thing to do is just remove klan vanilla all together, why convolve and complicate the process until it is less efficient than soloing? or does CZ still want to promote cooperative gameplay?
the math would mean you’d need 10 players with 12 visits just to get 109 scoops, and that’s with no interference. if they only had 8 turns, it’d be pointless. if you couldn’t get 8 people to participate it’d be pointless. and even with 8 you are only getting a handful more scoops than you get solo. now the same 12 turns will get you 72 scoops solo. but at a fraction of the time and effort, and with no cooperation. someone would have to be incredibly lucky to interfere (looking at you Dorian Blue)
I know some people want to make clan vanilla pointless. these changes will do that.
right now solo is incredibly buffed and clan slightly nerfed. the only thing that makes it look like my clan has the top bracket locked down is that EVERY SINGLE RAIDER is in the top bracket. when I tried raiding with alternates in other competitive brackets where they didn’t have the advantage of allies holding huge scoop counts, they ended up losing all their scoops. The way to make solo more competitive is to make it so no one clan dominates any bracket. (and so that alts can’t be in the same bracket)
a relatively simple change compared to the short list above. Pickled Dickbutt edited this message on 08/19/2008 7:18PM |
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Posted On: 08/19/2008 7:04PM | Pickled male reproductive organbum... | # | ||||||
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Pickled male reproductive organbum Posted:
I suggested that. They should simply remove klan vanilla altogether until we all find a better way to fix it.
It was suggested stuff as extreme as remove klannies from the same bracket. I think it’s fine to promote cooperative gameplay, but you can’t deny the advantage a current klan person has over a solo person. |
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Posted On: 08/19/2008 7:11PM | View Fran's Profile | # | ||||||
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an advantage that doesn’t necessarily come easy. there is an investment.
the total scoop advantage might be a little bit high right now. 360 (+ or – about 80) scoops a week more than a solo player makes it a bit rough. making it so you can’t ditch/join more than once a day will halve the retuens. 140 (+ or – about 40) scoops a week more may still be a bit much – so add another source of scoop income, raid interferance? make the rewards high enough that solo players competing with klan players will jump on it, and close the gap.
let me pose a question: how much of an advantage should a raider have over a solo player? Pickled Dickbutt edited this message on 08/19/2008 7:23PM |
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Posted On: 08/19/2008 7:22PM | Pickled male reproductive organbum... | # | ||||||